The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 37: The Guitar In Education - Part 2 - Steve Harvey and Becky Langan
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In this episode Chris begins a deep dive into the guitar in education. You can read the accompanying article in Music Teacher Magazine here https://www.musicteachermagazine.co.uk/features/article/commentary-in-defence-of-the-guitar-in-schools
Welcome to the Music Education Podcast. I'm Chris of the Chris Woods Groove Orchestra, and this podcast is brought to you by the Soundstorm Music Education Hub. This is part two of our two-part guitar and education special. Now, of course, it's such an iconic instrument that it obviously deserves two parts, just like the ukulele did. But I've also created an accompany article in Music Teacher magazine, and you can read it by heading to musicteacher magazine.co.uk or clicking the link in the episode description. I speak to two different guests in each episode, both times starting with someone from within the guitar industry itself to give us some context around the guitar and to see what's really happening with the instrument, who's playing it, who's buying it. And my second guest in each episode is an educator or someone working within the education realm. Every single one of these guests is someone who is a guitar player and someone who knows the guitar intrinsically and has some real knowledge to share with us. Now, you don't have to be a guitarist, you don't have to be a guitar teacher, you don't have to be anything to enjoy. In fact, you don't have to listen to these episodes in order. They're just really insightful and inspiring conversations with really interesting people. I think these conversations reveal quite uniquely, really, where the guitar is right now and what role it is playing in your students' lives and what role it could play in the educational settings that you're working in. Now, in part one, I speak to Anthony Short from the MIA or the Music Industries Association, and he really sets up where the guitar is and where it's come from. And then I speak to Jeff Schradel from How Leonard, who oversees a quite frankly breathtaking amount of guitar education content, and crucially education content that is seriously significant and influential. In part two, I speak to Steve Harvey, who's played a really fantastic role in the guitar industry itself and now is very involved in Loudoun guitars and the Sheeran guitar brand. And then my final guest is Becky Langan, who is an innovative and inspiring guitarist and also guitar tutor. Now, even though our conversations are comprehensive and there's an accompanying article and two parts, in some ways I feel we've only scratched the surface of this instrument. But I know however many of the following episodes you listen to, or however much of the accompanying article you read, you'll walk away with a fresh insight into an inspiring instrument. Steve, thanks so much for joining me today. Can we start off with a bit of a who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_03Chris, good to be with you. So uh my name is Steve Harvey, and I am a lover of all things guitar, uh particularly acoustic guitar, and I've been working in the music instrument industry for oh blime, over 25 years now. That makes me feel very old, but yeah. I've been involved uh with companies that produce guitars, and I've been involved in guitar magazines and guitar events and shows and exhibitions, which is where we first met many years ago.
SPEAKER_02Indeed. So you're you're you're a man who knows guitar, aren't you?
SPEAKER_03And and what's your current role as well, just to sort of so I'm currently working for Loudoun guitars, and uh Loudoun guitars are based uh just south of Belfast in the beautiful uh Northern Irish countryside.
SPEAKER_02Alright, man. So I guess the focus of this, well, it's it's obviously an education podcast, so we're we're talking about the guitar and its role in education, but I think you're a man who is gonna have a unique insight into the guitar as an instrument and how it's evolved over the past, well, just over the past, actually. And I mean Loudon are obviously kind of a modern company, aren't they, in the sense history of guitar making. So just to hear what sort of happened there in recent history, but also you know, from your previous work with say Martin, for example, and just yeah, putting it into context of what's what's changed and what what what young people are buying, you know. Tell me.
SPEAKER_03I would say, and the I'd preface what what I'm gonna say with um it's not an exact science, and there are so many variables involved in whether people choose to pick up a guitar or play a guitar or buy a second guitar or pick up the guitar again, but I think I think overall I would say in the last 10 years or so um it's become cool to play guitar again and particularly particularly acoustic guitar, and a lot of that has to do with what's going on in the music scene. Um, you know, looking back some some decades, it's no coincidence that the 80s were a really rough time for guitar because what was happening in the music world was new romantic and synths and pop, and there wasn't really much call for guitars. Um what really kicked it off again in many ways was Brit Pop and the Unplugged series that MTV did. That was just um phenomenal for the guitar world. You know, Clapton's it's often been said that Clapton's unplugged uh concert, you know, DVD, whatever it was, um, basically restarted the guitar world, and so um that what happens in in socially and what happens in music generally, I don't I don't really want to say the charts, but you know what I mean, what's popular in music that has a massive effect on how the guitar is doing, whether people are buying guitars, and whether it's actually perceived to be cool in any way. Um so since Brit Pot, since Unplugged, there's been a couple of little dips which have been more to do with you know world recession or problem with cash in people's pockets, but um overall the guitar itself has been on a really strong trajectory since then, uh, and long may it continue.
SPEAKER_02And and who are the leaders in that who are really sort of causing that to happen, you know, who who's inspiring people to to pick those out?
SPEAKER_03There's there's two there's two aspects to it which I find fascinating. Um the two aspects would be uh the legacy, what we would call the legacy artists who have an enduring appeal, and then there's the new blood, I would call them. So um I find it fascinating that you could speak to a really high percentage of teenagers nowadays and ask them what they're listening to, and some of them will tell you Led Zeppelin or Queen, you know, real guitar-driven rock, and it's cool that they're they're listening to Jimmy Page and Brian May and Pink Floyd and what have you, because guitar is front and centre, um, and I find that fascinating.
SPEAKER_02Maybe it's more of a reflection on the fact that there's a lot of the new music new music nowadays is is I when I discovered Hendrix through uh vinyl that my stepdad had, right? Whereas so actually that was almost more of a challenge to get, whereas now for young people they can discover the music that's being sort of uh marketed to them, but then equally on the exact same platform, they can stumble across um uh a bootleg Led Zeppelin recording or something because it's all just there on Spotify and Apple Music or whatever. But there's a big difference, isn't there, between Ed Sheeran and Jimmy Page. Um I think just explaining what that is is kind of tricky.
SPEAKER_03Is that easy to say though, because we play guitar?
SPEAKER_02Well, this this is it, because I was very conscious of doing a podcast about guitar when my entire life has been consumed by guitar, so it's trying to make that sort of accessible as possible, and that's it in that because because I want to express Ed Sheeran, Ed Sheeran is an innovator and leading the guitar market, but then actually two guitarists of who have you know been inspired pre-Ed Sheeran, there's this huge difference between Ed Sheeran and what I just said, Jimmy Page, or yeah, I don't know, I say uh a finger style guitarist, but I don't know, like Bert Janch or something, or whoever, there's this huge difference, but actually to a non-guitarist, they might not really be understanding what that is. Do you do you think that do you think there is, or do you think that's just because we're just old?
SPEAKER_03I'm like you in the sense that that's difficult to answer because we're so coloured by the experiences that we've had in the guitar world. Whereas arguably it's possible that you could go to someone in the street and say, with the exception of the sound the guitar makes, what are the differences between Ed Sheeran and Jimmy Page? I don't know, maybe they just view them both as guitarists, and they're technical innovators as well, aren't they? Because playing with sounds and I'd like to think that someone would say, Well, Jimmy Page was um was a guitarist and and Ed Sheeran is a songwriter who uses the guitar. But um, maybe even that is is too much colouration from a guitarist or somebody who's involved with car guitars from their perspective. But that yeah, that's an interesting question, that one. What do you think?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think I think now I've sort of sat down and and thought about it, and actually had so many music education conversations through doing this, and it's really the idea of what's got value in music is it's when you really pull it apart, it's a bit stupid, you know, it's a bit stupid to sort of weigh it up, you know, and but that's really what's happening, isn't it? Because it's we've revered people like Jimmy Page again, oh, like, oh you're a musical god, and then Ed Sheeran and comes along, if you like, uh uh who's playing something that's technically much more simplistically, so immediately we're like, well no, they're they're totally different. But actually, when you pull it apart, it's like there's there's no point in weighing them together, is it?
SPEAKER_03And it's so they're just and is isn't that one of the the most beautiful and complex things about music generally, is that um the most complex or the most technically proficient musicians are not necessarily the ones that make the best music. So, for example, you know, um Brian May and and Dave Gilmour just wading through the minor pentatonics for their solos is actually what they're playing is not massively difficult, but my god, it moves, you know, it moves you. It it Brian May's solos are intrinsic to every Queen song. You know, you can whistle them, they are so memorable, they're so melodic. And so um there's something to be said for understanding music without thinking that you've got to be the most technically proficient musician out there, whatever it might be.
SPEAKER_02But but this is also particularly focused on the guitar, isn't it, or relevant to the guitar? Because another person that we've spoken to in this particular episode is um Jeff from Howe Leonard and talking about how the guitar is something that you can access on a million different levels, you know, in strumming a few chords, in doing it for well-being, in being a virtuoso or playing it basically. And actually, you could still have a career in either of those. You could still have a career as a guitarist playing basically, or um in very technical way. That seems to be quite unique, doesn't it? I I guess it's it's it's a a real symbol of the guitar, isn't it? That it sort of crosses, it's it's yours to do whatever you want with it.
SPEAKER_03I think so. I think so. And that's why, interestingly, when people are having lessons or decide to learn, one of the biggest challenges for a teacher is well, what is it you want to learn? Because there's the the the palette is so wide. Do you want to learn some chords so that you can you can strum four chords and everybody's gonna sing Beatles songs with you? Or do you want to learn some clever finger style stuff, or do you want to learn to solo? That that's the beauty of the guitar, isn't it? How sort of wide those those palettes are, and that has an impact on what people want to learn when they're actually having lessons.
SPEAKER_02Totally. And there's there's always this obsession with progression, and well, in all education, actually, but actually when it comes to the guitar, it's kind of it's okay, isn't it, to just you could continue to have lessons with four or five chords for you know three or four decades, and um actually you could be working towards the most amazing career if you like, or you know, it's it's an instrument that you can get into detail of, isn't it? I suppose. Um let's can we talk about the physical changes in the instrument, maybe, or maybe even in the the price points of instruments and stuff, because I I think that's kind of an interesting thing as well, isn't it? Of people having access to cheaper instruments basically for and quality of that for kids in school, really isn't well that that's what yeah, as you were asking that question, that's what was coming to mind.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I bought my first guitar um in Denmark Street in the mid-80s, and um I spent I think a couple of hundred quid on it, and in truth, I went to the house.
SPEAKER_02So basically it was shall I buy a house or shall I buy a guitar?
SPEAKER_03You bought a guitar. Cool man. Well, I didn't have a girlfriend, so you know there was no uh there was no other sort of option to to spend the money on, but um it was a dog, comparatively speaking. You know, it was the action was unplayable, it didn't stay in tune, you know, uh it parts of it came loose very quickly. I think that nowadays one of the beauties of of the guitar industry and and people buying and learning the guitar is that in reality you could spend £250 on a guitar and you might not never need another guitar in your life. You know, it it's good enough. The quality of the instruments nowadays, um, I guess competition has done that. Um, someone like Bob Taylor would would have to take a lot of credit for that, you know, the the man who heads up Taylor guitars. He he learnt and taught the industry how to make quality guitars at a reasonable price point and kind of shook the whole guitar world up. But you you don't have to spend a lot of money to get a really decent guitar, you do have to spend more than what you would spend on a night out and you know a couple of kebabs and a kebab on the way home because uh there are still some some guitars that won't stay in tune, and you know, they might only be 50, 60 quid. But you spend you spend anywhere over 125, 150 pounds, and you've got yourself a half decent guitar. Of course, we all want to get on that ladder where we maybe trade in, add some money, get a nicer guitar and and and get get nicer instruments as time goes by, but yeah, the quality of instruments available to people nowadays is streets ahead of where it was 20 years ago.
SPEAKER_02Crazy, isn't it? Well what when we link this to pickups, because that's something that obviously has just changed in this idea of what an acoustic guitar is, right? When I was picking up guitar for the first time, and acoustic was an acoustic, and and actually there was this idea, this weird idea of an electro acoustic as something different, but that kind of doesn't exist now, does it? It's just here's an acoustic, but it's probably got a pickup on it.
SPEAKER_03Has a pickup, yeah, exactly. And that they've they've improved massively. Um, and um again, if I think about some of the stuff that I used to see and buy back in the day, sounded dreadful, you know. It's like sounded like a duck was was was being played. But um, you know, guitars nowadays uh will have pickups that you could quite happily play open mic night with, or you could uh you could plug into some semi-decent recording software at home and record um record what you're doing, and it sounds great, you know. In the same way, the easiest way to explain it is it the same way as computers and the phone have progressed beyond rocky recognition to what they were years ago, so has the guitar world and uh the quality of the instruments uh and the pickups uh available to you.
SPEAKER_02And this seems to be kind of unique to the guitar to to a degree as well. In these, I mean, that's what do you what do you think? Is that is that kind of correct? These sort of I think I mean a saxophone. It's still a saxophone, isn't it? Really? Whereas now an acoustic podcast.
SPEAKER_03Although I what yeah, I know exactly what you mean, but I wonder if on a on a on the other side of the world someone's having a saxophone podcast saying, isn't it amazing you can get such good saxophones for good money, you know, for for less money these days. I don't know that world enough. I know that in the sort of um you know MIDI keyboards and the the the features within keyboards and synthesizers these days is frightening, you know, it's just phenomenal. But in terms of instruments that we require resonance and you know vibration to make their noise, yeah, I would say that the guitar is pretty unique in that sense.
SPEAKER_02Because it it just looks different, doesn't it, as well? You know, I can I think I think most people could differentiate in shape between uh you know an 80s pointy shredder guitar and a guitar that was then 10 years later. Someone who isn't a guitarist, they can they can recognise that. Whereas a violin, okay, it is, isn't it? It really is, and I think that's sort of I mean I appreciate then we've got the um you know outline body, um, but even then that's not something that's changed by decade by decade, is it? That's it's it is really unique, isn't it? Um let's jump to Mr. Shear and and you know that sort of because I'm I'm particularly interested by the idea of what players people are listening to informs students wanting to learn. I mean, you were talking right at the beginning about how you know now is a time for the guitar because it's booming and and obviously mentioned Ed Sheeran. And to have one of the biggest stars on earth having their own brand of guitar is actually very unique that tells you what a special time it is, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_03Agreed, yeah. I mean, there have always been uh what we would call artist models. So, for those that are not familiar with that, you would have a manufacturer who would make a specific guitar for that specific artist. So, you know, um you would have a uh a slash from Guns N' Roses, a slash Les Paul that would be unique to him, he'd spec it out that. The Sheehan uh line of guitars is slightly different because it's not just one model, it's actually a range of guitars. It's a it's a it's a brand in itself. So that's the first time anything like that's really happened at at that level worldwide, you know. I think the Sheeran guitars is interesting because it it tells us a lot about his personality as well as his musical interests and and uh allegiances, it's kind of inspiring for the younger generation, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And are younger people digging into it as well?
SPEAKER_03Absolutely, absolutely they are, yeah. Um I mean wouldn't it be wrong to say they're the only guitars younger people are buying, that's not the case, because as we said before, there's a lot of choice out there and there's a lot of good choice, you know, there's a lot of good guitars available. But yeah, younger people are definitely tuning in, and maybe they see uh maybe they see Ed as you know one of someone on their side, one of their guys. They see a very ordinary chap who um did it the hard way, you know. He wasn't an overnight success. He he he pounded the streets basking for years and years, and maybe maybe they they um identify with that in some way.
SPEAKER_02That leads us to like the idea of the guitar being more accessible than it was, which I guess comes out of the fact that uh of price, because we've talked about that, and that's why it's been so important to talk to people like yourself in the instrument industry, because if guitars are the price of well, one of the possible reasons that basoons are an endangered instrument might be partly because they're so expensive, um but you know with it's a the price is a is a huge thing, but is uh are we just also seeing it becoming a more accessible instrument because of the different artists as well, in that sense and those sort of stories?
SPEAKER_03I think so. Yeah, I mean you go to an average Taylor Swift concert, what percentage of the audience are girls and boys under the age of 18? I don't know exactly, but you've got a high percentage, high percentage of kids there. Um and when she picks up a guitar and plays a few of her songs acoustically um or just her and an acoustic guitar, that's gotta have an impact. That's got to have an I know it had an impact on me when I saw my heroes playing, you know, playing guitar and um uh on top of the pops or whatever it may have been. So it's got to have an impact. So you couple you couple that with uh the affordability of good quality instruments, uh you couple that with what's happening in the charts, and as I said to you before, I think it's become cool to play guitar. You know, it's cool uh and and particularly so for girls, you know. I know some music teachers that the the majority of their students are girls under the age of 16 who just love to play guitar.
SPEAKER_02Um and that is there is a real broadening of of gender access to that, isn't there? I know Jeff was saying that within the sort of learning materials as well, and that being just a real good expensive.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I would I would say more than broadening, I mean, if some of my friends and people that I know in the industry are to be believed, the majority of people that are sitting down with structured pop-up lessons now are female, right? Um, which is great. Uh and so the other thing, so along with good or good instruments that are uh affordable, along with what's happening in the music scene generally and how cool it now is to play guitar, um the availability of free educational material as well as purchase, you know, purchase one-on-ones or whatever it might be. But you can go, you know, we both know you could go on YouTube uh and learn how to play six or seven chords off of a YouTube, you know, tutorial, um, which you know, six or seven chords would give you 75% of the Beatles back catalogue, wouldn't it? I mean, it's just that that's almost all you need to get going. Um, and so I think that that's almost a perfect storm of people playing, um, and then it then it becomes self, you know, it's a snowball, isn't it? It becomes sort of self-fulfilling, it becomes an ecosystem in itself where um people will see their friends playing and they'll want to have a go, and then they're playing, before you know it, they're playing together, and then they're learning new stuff. And oh, buy this book, or I'm having lessons with this guy, or look at this guitar that's just come out. You know, it then becomes an ecosystem in itself, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_02And a thing that people own, right? Rather than it being, I don't know. I I guess then maybe when it gets put into school, it needs to get in schools in a different way that's more sort of student-led, i.e., I was watching this YouTube video, I've discovered this artist, this is what we should do, rather than the sort of tried and tested, here is the information, this is what we're gonna learn.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, if I'm honest with you, it's something I would like to learn more about, um, and that is how schools approach instrument education. You know, do they there was because there was a time maybe 10 years ago where schools were full of ukuleles and the ukulele was the the instrument to be taught, and some of that was their affordability, some of that was that um, you know, if you had 25 of them, you could fit them in a cupboard, whereas if you had 25 guitars or whatever, it would you physically take up more space. Um, but I I don't know how at the moment how that's working, you know. I don't know whether schools are offering guitar as an option or whether um it's all done privately or at home and online.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think I shall tell you, Steve, I think it's uh at least as well, we've just done a two-episode special on ukulele, so that goes to show that um it's it's still huge, it's still huge. And and interestingly, one of the reasons that came out of those two episodes was your pretty lengthy deep dives into the ukulele and education, um, and is that actually uh aside from those practicalities that you've just described, that are actually game changers in schools that are struggling with resources and space, and you know, yeah, actually it's because it doesn't come attached with a history, with a culture, if you like, even though it does have history and culture, when we hold up a ukulele, you know, we're not we haven't got Hendrix breathing down our neck. Do you know what I mean? Most most sort of players are just it's just coming without any baggage, if you like, but so in a sense, there's a less pressure. I think so. I think so, but I I feel I feel with the guitar that seems to be changing in the presentation of it now. I mean, I I'm are we perhaps I'm talking about Ed Sheeran far too much. I'm almost using him as a I don't know, is the archetype the right word? Like he's someone who's demonstrating what a lot of more modern guitar artists do, and there seems to be something there that actually has an authenticity again that maybe the guitar was a bit more rock star, was a bit more ego, was all those things, whereas now the guitar it isn't that it isn't that anymore, and and in education, maybe that means that maybe now is a cool time to sort of engage with it. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I I would suggest it's the Sheeran age, you know, it's the Swift, the Taylor Swift age. It's it's because it is playing that supporting role, you know, as as as amazing as a Brian May or a John Mayer or uh a Dave Gilmour is, the guitar is the sh is is is the star in that scenario, isn't it? You know, that and that's shown by virtue of the fact that when they sell these instruments or put them up for auction, um or um you know uh there are versions of that guitar made by the manufacturers. I mean, what was it was it Gilmore's black strap went for million and a half dollars or something? So the guitar is the star in that scenario, whereas with Sheeran, he'll pick up any acoustic guitar and he'll play you ten number one hits. So the git the guitar in that scenario is is a supporting role, which is I think a very cool place to be, because it does mean that anybody could pick up pretty much any guitar, get themselves a few lessons, get a basic understanding of some shapes on the fretboard and uh and sing a song yeah that that that may have sold ten million copies. I think that's very cool.
SPEAKER_02Perfect perfect place to stop as well, Steve. I think that's sort of a nice view of what the guitar is now. Nice.
SPEAKER_03I I find it fascinating, you know. It essentially it's it's uh it's some wood, some glue, and a couple of thin bits of metal. But arguably, you know, it's changed the world, isn't it? From from when the Beatles sang Yeah, yeah, yeah, she loves you, through to uh Sheeran playing Wembley Stadium. What was it with 80,000 people, just him and a little acoustic guitar? I mean that's that's that's phenomenal. So I I um yeah, I'm a proper certified nerd and I'll talk about guitars for as long as as long as I'm allowed to. It's fascinating talking about it with you, Chris.
SPEAKER_02Well, thank you so much, ma'am. Becky, thanks so much for joining me today. Can we start off with a bit of a who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um so my name's Becky Langin. Um I'm a percussive finger style guitar player, um, and I'm a performer, composer, and a teacher.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful. That was very, very concise. That's that's I guess I guess uh some people listening to this might not know what percussive finger style is. They should, obviously, because it's it's the coolest style of guitar playing on earth. Um but I don't know, can you describe what that actually is?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so um I discovered in I think it was 2006, um, that there was this like style of guitar that I'd never even seen before, and it completely blew my mind. Um, so I guess there's a percussive element um so you can create, you know, like rhythm, um, you can play melody, you can play bass at the same time. Um so yeah, you can you can basically be an instrumental artist on just one instrument, which I think is just amazing. And obviously, it's just like endless amounts of inspiration because there's so much that you can do.
SPEAKER_02Um it's kind of a relatively recent genre in its size, isn't it? Or style. It's not I don't know, it's not really a genre, is it? It's like a an approach to guitar. But it's kind of been obviously it was there for longer with like Preston Reed and Michael Hedges, but it's the it's YouTube, isn't it, that's really sort of brought brought it about to the masses, if you like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um for me it was um I'm sure a lot of finger style guitarists were inspired by this at that time, but um Annie McKee Drifting was featured on YouTube, and like to be honest, I didn't think it was real. I was I was just like, what?
SPEAKER_02What is this trickery?
SPEAKER_01It's just weird, isn't it? Like, especially when you've it's really cool to see people see it for the first time as well, because they always have this kind of look on the face, like I've never seen that before, but um obviously there's like generations of it and there's so many people to look up to as well, amazing musicians. Um it's just endless sources of inspiration.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, yeah, you're a you're a unique guitar player, or you're approaching things in a um I don't know, I I don't I almost want to say specialist, but it's it's just uh but you approach things in a cool way. As well as doing that, you also teach, right? So tell us about your briefly about what what you kind of do teaching-wise.
SPEAKER_01Um so with teaching um I mainly teach children, um, quite a lot of like female students as well, actually, which is something that's changed. Um and I actually teach mainly neurodiverse children. Um so I I've found that I've had to kind of like adapt my lessons, you know, according to kind of approach their learning style. Um so I found that with the guitar, um, because there's so many elements to it, I find that it really helps children that kind of have problems with, you know, like short attention span. Because you can kind of like you can kind of like see like maybe they're getting a little bit like bored of something, so then you can immediately switch and be like, okay, let's focus on rhythm. And then you can just keep switching. And I've found that I've managed to kind of keep their attention, and for quite a lot of children, um it's it's almost provided them with like an outlet and something that they didn't know that they needed, if that makes sense, to face like the adversities of life. Um, and it's just amazing to see because I remember experiencing that as a kid when I first picked up the guitar, and um it's just great to see that you know, in like another generation and to be the person that can provide that inspiration for them.
SPEAKER_02Boom! That's great. Like no, no, all the other people that we've spoken to, uh the idea of um it being the perfect instrument for all different sort of neurodiversities or ways of brains working hasn't even come up, and then you just you know came out with that straight away. That's that's amazing. I do you think that's the unique? I I guess in my head I can see that that being quite unique to the guitar in the sense that it is this instrument that can be so many different parts bass, rhythm, chords, melody, percussion, like the very style that you're playing in. Do you think it is quite unique to the guitar or um I do.
SPEAKER_01I think like with like obviously um some people could argue, you know, maybe the piano like is like a a good instrument to start with as well. But I think because obviously you can play like harmonies on both instruments, but I think the difference is is with the guitar, um you don't like there's a lot of guitarists that don't know theory, for example, um, and they might not you know read sheet music, they might kind of be more of like a listener, and for me that's how I learned. I I don't have an academic background, and I'll admit I'm I don't really know much about theory, but I've found that um not that theory would kind of stop me from doing anything, obviously learning theory is a great advantage, but what I found is um I felt like I had that kind of space for creativity, um, and that's something that I really try and focus on in my lessons, uh, creativity. And obviously, like it takes a little bit for the for like a student to kind of get to that point where they can kind of like improvise or see what a certain like note would sound like or a certain movement or technique, um, but then when you kind of like see them um experiencing you know kind of like a creative kind of feeling for the first time, it's absolutely amazing. Um I had a kid he has ADHD in autism, and I think he's like only nine years old, and um I managed to get him like switching between chords, like doing a riff. But rather than just be like, okay, learn this riff, what I try and do is I try and teach them like a little bit of theory in terms of like the scale and stuff, and I'll be like, okay, like you can go here, what would it sound like if you did this? So I never really say do this, I say see what that you know would sound like and kind of base base it off that. And I I basically just try and tell them, I constantly try and tell them like a bad note isn't a mistake, and it's not a bad note, it's just you just kind of learning and creating that kind of muscle memory on how to kind of like connect notes together and ideas, um and there's there's more infinite ways of playing a note in there, but putting it weighing it up against the piano.
SPEAKER_02There's obviously a degree of velocity or timing, or using pedals obviously for sustain. So you've got that that envelope of attack sustain release decay or something like that. But then with the guitar, there's slide into it, slide it into it in these infinite number of ways, there's hammer on, there's sort of choke the note slightly at this point. You've just got so much to it, yeah, it's just so much more of an individualistic instrument, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01I guess definitely, yeah. Um, and obviously there's the fact that you can kind of like transport it anywhere as well, which is obviously like a huge advantage, and um like yeah, like obviously you don't have the percussive element of a piano. Um I think I saw someone on YouTube which was it was kind of cool, they did like percussion and they did a cover of Drifting by Andy McKee. But with the guitar, like obviously there's so many different aspects of the instrument, you know, which create like different tones, and um, I think with the guitar, um yeah, I definitely think it's a great gateway to kind of create your own individual sound compared to the piano.
SPEAKER_02Um and what about tuning as well? Because that's something with all the other guests we haven't spoken about, because that's a huge game change and a thing that sets it aside, doesn't it, from even other stringed instruments? Because you know, to my knowledge, there's not so many cellists and violinists, you know, working in open tuning, but partly because there might not be as much point actually, because the strings aren't you know played together, all of them. So yeah, tell me tell us about that a little bit.
SPEAKER_01It took me a while to work this out, but you don't really need theory, you know, when you're playing open tunings. Um so obviously that creates like a lot more freedom. Um and for me, actually, um I think I was like 14 uh when I discovered open tuning-ins. I went in DadGuard for the first time, um, and I was just completely blown away. And like for the first time I was able to kind of like improvise like a little bit more freely, and I found that to be more difficult in standard tuning. Um probably probably because I don't have an academic background in you know scales and theory, but um, you know, um I was like I was quite inspired by uh Joni Mitchell as well. So I th I'm pretty sure when I was maybe like 13 I went into like Open C or something, um, but I just completely forgot about the tuning and I forgot how to tune it back. So but I to be honest, I don't really play in standard tuning. Um I do teach in standard tuning, um, and you know, when the student's ready, I'll start to introduce them to open tuning-ins if they want to. Um I always try and just kind of like base a lesson based on what I'm kind of getting from the student, you know, like what are they interested in. Um but I have found that they do respond really well to open tune-ins, and you can see that kind of I don't know, I feel like the scales are kind of a little bit easier as well, and you can kind of play like one note and it sounds great. Um so no matter what your ability is, you're able to create like a great sound. Um, and I think that's an amazing thing because obviously that's a huge motivator when you first pick up an instrument. Um, like I tried the violin once and it sounded like a dying cat, and I never picked it up again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I guess instant loop of awesome, basically, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, but yeah, with a guitar, like it's just it just sounds great, like from obviously it sounds better than what you practice, but from day one it does it, you do you get like a great sound from it, and there's so much that you can do.
SPEAKER_02So looking at your experiences as a teacher, and a lot of this uh podcast has been this ep episode anyway, has been about the guitar uh in education now and why it's in a different place to where it was five years ago, maybe, and how it's this symbol of something different. I mean what what what are your sort of uh observations of of that?
SPEAKER_01Well when I first started playing the guitar, um I I learned because basically my dad Was learning, but I look back and I'm really glad that I chose the guitar. Um, but yeah, so like basically he just kind of gave me these like free chord books. Um it was like Bon Jovi and stuff. I re I don't even like Bon Jovi, but I learned Bon Jovi. Um and there were there was just kind of like limited things really, like there wasn't as much kind of like information that you could kind of access. Like now, if you look at it, we have like the world of YouTube. Um like if I didn't see that video, you know, by Andy McKee in 2006, like maybe I wouldn't have you know picked up that style like ever. Like that that moment was like such a great source of inspiration that kind of changed my life. Um and obviously on YouTube you have like a lot of like guitar lessons and videos, and you have these like there's so many things, isn't there? Like I'm pretty sure they've even created products for people who are blind, like to learn the guitar, like it's so it's so accessible accessible. Um but yeah, like in terms of like being able to like gain new knowledge, like I definitely think it's just gone in the best direction because if you look at how technology's developed, like it's kind of like education is developing alongside technology, and that's something that was kind of like limited when I first started to play.
SPEAKER_02There's such a culture of other guitarists tabbing out tunes that they've learned or doing uploading video lessons of how to play this again. I think is quite uh unique to the guitar. I mean, something like Ultimate Guitar, which is just this huge database of people generated transcriptions, if you like, which are all fully legit as well. There's a sort of a licensing element to that, and that's quite unique to the guitar again, isn't it? But what what about with your students when you're working with them? Um so actually real-time interactions with students. Have you noticed a difference in the past what however long 10 years or whatever you've been doing that for?
SPEAKER_01Um yeah, like I feel like um I feel like when whether it was because like I wasn't as I was a less experienced teacher back then, so that that could have been like part of it, obviously. I've noticed that students are definitely kind of like more inspired to practice. Um like when like when I first started, you know, teaching, um it was just kind of like um like okay, like what what track should we learn? Should we learn this? Should we learn that? Whereas now it's like you've got this like infinite source of information, and I think that helps you become a better teacher as well, because you you know you're provided with that information to kind of pass on. And obviously when you first start the guitar, like there's so much information that you just don't know where to start, it's and you need that guidance, um, and I think that guidance is really really important. Um but yeah, like I've definitely noticed one, there's more female students, and two, um, like during times like this, like let's be honest, the world is mental. Everybody needs an outlet. And for me, like if I didn't have the guitar, like I don't know, I probably would have got arrested or something.
SPEAKER_02It's yeah, it's it's a sort of an essential thing for people to yeah, to have an outlet. Alright, well, let's delve into the broadening of you know more female students and how that's when that sort of happened. Maybe even if you like have an idea of why on earth that is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um so when I first started the guitar, um I remember like multiple occasions, like even my own family members just saying, like, um why why why are you learning that? You know, it's like it's it's for boys, and it's just kind of like but I I've always had this attitude of like if I like something, I don't care what people think and I'll do it. Like if something makes me happy, I don't care how strange it is, I'll just I'll just do it. And that's the kind of mindset that I had when I learned the guitar. Um, and it's kind of sad really because it's like imagine finding something you enjoy and then being made to feel bad about it because it's but it's just like what defines what you're allowed to do, and like this whole gender thing is just absolutely ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02I mean I mean that that's here is seriously powerful to to hear. I've almost had like a throughout doing this an inkling of that that might have been the case, but as a bloke, it's not so easy to say that that was the case because I wouldn't have had that experience. But for you to say actually, and for people watching this, you're not someone in their 60s. With where when would this be like early noughties that you're being told that playing guitar is more of a boys game?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it was probably about so I I started playing in I think 2003. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01It was about then. Um but yeah, it's it is ridiculous. Um but yeah, I have noticed that obviously there's a lot more kind of like women playing guitar, and there's there was a study that has been done, hasn't there, that kind of said I don't know how much it's increased by, but is it like 50-50 now? Um I've started to notice it anyway in guitar lessons um based on the students that I have.
SPEAKER_02Um but yeah, like why do you think that is though? Why why do you think like that attitude is is that just a broader attitude or is it a guitar-specific thing? I mean a lot a lot of the other um guests on this particular episode have talked a lot about a change in the artists and and actually even the change in male artists, if you like, they put in someone like someone like Ed Sheeran, actually, who who keeps getting mentioned because ultimately, even though he might not be a guitar virtuoso, he is a guitar um it hero, right? And that he's quite different if you put him next to like Van Halen or someone who it seems more accessible to all genders but also more people or different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I think like when when you first start, especially when you're a kid, um, I think you kind of like look for um what's relatable. So obviously, maybe like someone who is the same gender might be more relatable, and therefore it's they can provide like a source of inspiration. Um, like so I was inspired by um Joni Mitchell, Kaki King, like there's so many like female guitarists that are just amazing. Um, and it it's ridiculous because you go on the internet and it's just like top guitarists and they're all they're all male, aren't they? And it's just like so obviously that kind of creates this whole perception of um you know this is like a male-dominated thing, and it's it's more of like a subconscious feeling, it's not like it's more like whatever you see like in the media is what is kind of projected through your brain, like okay, that's a guy thing. Um but in fact it's not, it's just like culturally culturally, I can't say the word, and socially created. Um yeah, it's just the most pointless thing that's ever existed. I think every anyone should just do whatever they want to do. Um and it's great being like a female teacher because obviously um I feel like I've kind of like inspired like a like a few like female students in particular, and it's just like amazing to see. Um because a lot of them have like mental health struggles, and I can I can relate to that quite a lot. And um the guitar was always like like num num like whatever kind of like day you have, you have like the worst day ever. You're not alone because you always always have the guitar, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01Um, and to kind of see that in like younger people, particularly women, um, is just an amazing thing, and I I just love what I do to be honest.
SPEAKER_02Another thing that we've talked a fair bit about is the acoustic guitar in the modern time, and how that's different. How I don't know, when both of us were learning the acoustic guitar was kind of acoustic. There was this strange other thing called uh electroacoustic, but oh yeah, do you know what I mean? But now I mean both you and I operate in a world where our acoustic guitar is just goes through a gigantic pedal board and you know, complex pickup systems, and and that's kind of standard, isn't it? You know, even just having a pickup now in an acoustic. I guess most of your students probably have you know a pickup in their guitar. That it's just changed so much, hasn't it? That perception of what acoustic guitar is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so it was actually um just before I'd say like 2015, I didn't even play for an amplifier, like ever. Like only like when I used to do open mic nights and stuff. Um, so yeah, that's just completely changed. Um, and obviously you have to kind of keep on top of that and constantly learn like about all these new sounds that you can create, and um yeah, it's just like the inspiration just never ends. I love it.
SPEAKER_02It's cool, but again, quite unique to the the guitar, isn't it? For that the acoustic element of it to be now so put in together with otherworldly sounds, you know, all all our sort of yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um so that that's obviously kind of creates kind of space for you know like being inspired by like different kind of genres of music. Um, because obviously like by using like pedals and stuff you can create um I don't know, like you could have a chorus pedal and then you can sound like you're from the plane in the 1980s, or like personally I don't like chorus, but I feel the same, it does something to me, it makes me feel uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02Who's who's turned on a chorus pedal?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just it's too much trouble. Not fun.
SPEAKER_02Cool, cool. Well I think that's amazing, Becky. That's thank you so much for um all your insight, really. Tell you what, let's finish with uh who people should go and listen to because the people listening to this podcast, I reckon a fair few guitar teachers and such like are gonna be really into this, but I also uh hope that there's classroom teachers and other instrumental teachers, and it would be cool to hear some inspirational guitarists to go and listen to, um especially based on you know some of the more percussive stuff, or you know who do you reckon with?
SPEAKER_01Um I'm inspired by so many guitarists. You're actually one of them. Ah you are really, really, really bloody good. Thank you. Um, like, yeah, like so I've always been inspired by like Khaki King, John Gom, um Andy McKee, Thomas Leeb. Cool, cool, cool. Keep going, this is great. Vicky Vicky Ge Geffen. I don't I don't want to pronounce her surname wrong, but she's she's amazing. I love her as well. Um Ali Todd, she's great. Yeah. Um Amber Russell, I don't want to miss anyone out, like there's so many. Um Manelli Jamal, I like him as well. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's that's cool. I mean that that's a lifetime's worth of of listening, there isn't there, and a real mix of um styles within that, even though all sorts within a percussive realm. So that's super cool. Becky, you've been awesome, thank you.