The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 40: 'Counting Culture' Tabla Player Harkiret Singh Bahra
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In this episode Chris talks to Harkiret Singh Bahra about rhythm, time, counting and of course tabla. You can read the accompanying article in Music Teacher Magazine here... https://www.musicteachermagazine.co.uk/features/article/counting-culture-inclusive-percussion-lessons
Welcome to the Music Education Podcast. I'm Chris of the Chris Woods Groove Orchestra, and this podcast is brought to you by the Soundstorm Music Education Hub. Now, this episode has an accompanying article in Music Teacher Magazine. To read that, you can click the link in the episode description or simply head to musicteachermagazine.co.uk and you can find it there. In this episode, I chat with Hakirat Singh Barra, hands down, one of the country's finest tablet players. And I've also been very fortunate to have worked with Hakirat for a long time now. And I've learned so much from him. And really, this episode and accompanying article in Music Teacher magazine is about some of those things that I've learned from Hakirat. Because he taught me a kind of a different perspective on counting, and it opened my eyes to the fact that different people count in different ways. Almost a different perspective on even feeling rhythm and time. Now the effect that that had on my teaching was really quite profound. And I think if you listen to this episode, your teaching will benefit from it. So our conversation is very much about the culture of counting and the perspectives within that. It also features a lot of really amazing tablet playing and some expert guidance in to counting some pretty tricky numbers. One, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one two, I'm not sure if you're not going to be a pretty sure you'll agree with me that the next forty minutes are valuable and really enjoyable. Hi Kirit, thank you so much for joining me this evening. Can we start off with a bit of uh who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_02Well, it's very kind. Thank you, Chris. Thanks for inviting me. I'm uh very honoured that you thought of me to, you know, have a chat about rhythm and about dubla and about myself. Uh so I'm a dubla player, uh, regard myself as a musician, um, humble student, still on this journey. Um, I played Dubla for as a passion. Um, I love playing Indian classical music, but also, as you know, I'm sure you know uh very well that going into Western genres and sort of experimenting with guitar and acoustic guitars um as brilliantly as you play it. It's uh it's lovely to sort of delve into that music and experience it. So thanks, thanks for having me again.
SPEAKER_03A pleasure, a pleasure, man. Um where do we start? Um I've had the the great pleasure of working with you for however many years it has been, um, and have learnt uh an insane amount from you, and that's the reason for wanting to to talk to you, to talk about percussion and to coin this phrase sort of counting culture and people's individual different approaches on feeling rhythm, I guess, and counting. So uh for me, from my experience of working with you, you opened my my brain to different numbers and um different perspectives. So I guess can we just start with hearing about how you think in a sort of a numeric way and how that applies to the tablet, you know?
SPEAKER_02What's what's what's lovely about uh this instrument um in terms of actually just talking about the instrument first is it has its treble drum for complexity, um, but also the bass drum um that you can stretch different tones and add musicality to it. And so it's it's therefore it it's not just about pulsing one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four. You can add different elements and nuances uh within that uh and you know, blend and uh add musicality, like I said, to the bass. Uh so it you know you can mask certain emphasis or certain nuances in there. Um and I think that's what what makes it you know lends itself really well to accompany so many different genres of music and and so it's kind of a melodic rhythm element. Absolutely, yeah. Um and yeah, so in terms of uh Indian classical rhythms, we still have our one, two, four or one, two, three, four counting. Um one of the most uh sort of well-played rhythmic cycles for Indian classical or North Indian classical music is a 16 beat rhythmic cycle, and that's split into four lots of four, uh which is one, two, three, four, two, two, three, four, three, two, three, four, four, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, two, two, three, four, three, two, three, four, four, two, three, four, one. Um, but North Indian classical music, you you can delve into rhythmic cycles of six beats, five beat rhythmic cycles, sevens, nines, tens, and ten and a half, and actually we uh we were quite fortunate. I I can't remember which project we did, um, but we wanted to add in rug and add a new composition to our our repertoire. Uh so we um chose uh 13 and a half beats as the rhythmic cycle, yeah, which is a beautiful, real peaceful piece, but actually some complex complexity in um 13 and a half beats and how to how to sort of make that musical but keep it 13 and a half was uh was pretty interesting, and that's the sort of thing I love love doing. Uh and you played you played a beautiful piece uh in Rag Yuman, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03It was, wasn't it? And yeah, 13 and a half. I mean, I still don't really understand how we did that or how you did that because you said let's do that as 13 and a half, and I was like, okay, well, but I tell you what, let's backtrack to a little bit of what you were saying at the beginning, and then I don't know, I feel like we can sort of psych ourselves up for 13 and a half bits towards the end. So you you said that actually four is still really familiar within North Indian classical, anyway, but then obviously you build up to then the sort of to me what felt like crazy numbers of what seven really, even though it's much more familiar now. You know, seven was just it felt awkward at first. So when it comes to teaching, man, how do you but you know, do you do you m go for four and seven kind of in the same lesson? Or do you how do what's your approach there?
SPEAKER_02I I think probably as as you said, you know, you do build up to those sort of things. Um but and and we were um I think it was uh I felt very fortunate that we did um a whole stint, I think two weeks of um school workshops in Bournemouth.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh and we were teaching counting and clapping to school children that would never have come across counting in sevens. Um but the pulse and and this is what we're taught um uh with Dublin is uh and just in classical music, the you know the the concept of sevens is split into different different divisions. Um so the pulse would be one, two, three, one, two, and one, two. Uh and so to clap that in sevens would be one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, one. And so now, and the the concept of clapping and speaking is is um very much a fundamental sort of principle of learning to count these rhythms. Uh, and it allows a double player and for myself to be able to practice without even having my instrument in front of me. And so to internalize all those beats and counting uh allows allows you to really practice on on the go. Uh so yeah, sevens would be, and and we did this with uh the those workshops with children clapping along with us, is one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one. And you would uh whilst you whilst you're sort of practicing is emphasize the one and give it much more prominence, and then you start relaying that into your playing and add different phrases. Um we also uh could flip it and go one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two. And then sevens become so much more accessible.
SPEAKER_03Hmm. It's that it's unbelievable, isn't it? I I I I was when we were doing those in those workshops, um, I was really quite blown away by how you know a huge assembly hall of kids could just pick up on seven because I exact I remember when we were doing that performance at real world studios, and David and was there on Hang Drum and Ben was on double bass. And I can't remember whether it was you or maybe even David, because he's kind of like into proggy stuff, I think, and you started doing something in seven. Yes, yep, and I and I remember sort of playing along, yeah, but someone said it was in seven, and then I just my confidence drained, and I was just like, Oh god, oh I just can't, and because I'm kind of there going, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Nope, can't feel it. When did you feel five, six, seven? No, I can't feel that either. So, and and then you know, several years later, then when we did these workshops, and you you were teaching me in sevens in that way, and it's just like a total different perspective, isn't it? You you you were talking about like feeling a phrase, really.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you um we we made another piece actually based in Seven Synth we um and it's nice because you know, as a tableau player in terms of Indian classical music, we we learn we learn this repertoire, um, but then I found I was playing those classical pieces with this beautiful guitar piece, and you know, it's uh I think that's the amazing thing, and that's why I feel so humbled to be on this journey, is that you know I can play all these things that you know I've been sitting in my room practicing for years and years, but now I'm playing it with a with a totally original guitar piece with yourself, so yeah, it was amazing. I mean, if ever you you could you could add those um clips into the podcast, that'd be amazing.
SPEAKER_03Or that would, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_02That would add some links and add some links. But yeah, I mean if if I if I could demonstrate a little bit of sevens, please do it, mate. Do it because you know it's the idea is then to try and keep that pulse in your mind, but then add some musicality to your playing.
SPEAKER_01Um so if we were to keep one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two.
SPEAKER_03Amazing. Hope you liked it. Yeah, beautiful, beautiful. So what was happening?
SPEAKER_02I yeah, like I said, I was I was just trying to keep the one, two, three, one, two, one, two going in my head. Um, but then also trying to bend around it and uh use the bass to you know mask it, but also keep it there as well. And so on the on the treble with uh trying to keep one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, or one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, but adding these rolling type of phrases to to fill fill in the gaps. So one, two, three, one, two, one, two, one, two, three, one, two becomes uh, and so yeah. And then it sounds more interesting and yeah, keeps it going.
SPEAKER_03And how have you learnt those you you say said phrases there, right? So how did you learn them? Did you learn them in notation? Were they written in words? Was it just said hourly? Was it a picture? What was it?
SPEAKER_02Apart from uh maybe pictures, but all of the above, really, actually. Uh so the the I can't think of a better way to say it, but the traditional tradition of learning doubler was literally being uh spoke, you know, spoken and recited to you, and you were expected to pick it up. Uh there was no, here's a sheet, you know, here's a book, write it down, or I'll, you know, um it would literally be, and if you're worthy enough to learn it, it would be, you know, so and so and so, okay, off you go and and play it. Um so we've been fortunate enough to learn in the UK um with UK-based teachers, but also bringing in some Indian classical uh maestros from India. Um and so feel very fortunate that we got to learn from amazing great teachers, um, still learning at the moment as well. Um so there there is written form, and you would write it down, absorb it, but also you know, certain things are just spoken to you. Uh, and if you're if you're advanced enough, you can just pick it up and and take it from there. Uh, and then it's like we said uh before about internalizing it and really just absorbing it so you can um present it in your your own style in your own way. Um but lot you know there's lots of um lots of great maestros that you just take inspiration from. Um so these sort of things are are commonly commonly played. Um, but then like we said about as in adding musicality uh with the bass, that's that's your individual perception and you know presentation as well.
SPEAKER_03Okay, and can we have a uh well not a look, an audible look at those different sounds as well, that sort of changing voice, I suppose.
SPEAKER_02Of course, yeah. So with double eye there comes that vocabulary, um and they're all action sounds. So this is da and du and then we start putting them together, we get da da da kina, da kinha, da kinna, da kenakina, da de da kinakina. So all these um things that'll be everything that is played on the double eye is spoken.
SPEAKER_03And uh all the way through is your learning as well. So right from the beginning, it's so tied in the body. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02So as I was keeping the pulse of sevens in my mind, I was also saying out the notation and saying what I was playing. Um and so we we you know that's how I was taught, and that's how we we teach it onwards as well.
SPEAKER_03Because I I I feel like that's um and this is obviously just a guess, but I I feel like that's sort of laying a foundation for a completely different sort of perspective on on not not on time, time itself, but you know what I mean? In that sort of um coming from again this rhythmic phrase rather than this groove-based idea of here is the the pulse is I I I mean it gets so semantic, can't it? But sure what um as I've I think I've said already, or or at least we've chatted about, I always I felt like my playing with you suddenly jumped to an a new level when I appreciated that I think actually we were feeling the rhythm in a slightly different way. You were sort of it was some kind of melodic thing that you were following and an ebb and flow, and I would sort of go out of time because I'm just a bit unworthy, and but but you but you would follow, and I'd be like, What? I thought I went out of time there, but he's and that's because you go with this phrase and these and these rhythmic phrase, and then I think I think it was the tea high, actually, which hopefully you can explain. But when we did um the tea high in um Rag Yaman, and yeah, it was that feeling of it was it did it didn't fit, I couldn't fit that into a bar, you know. It was just I just had to get it as a rhythmic phrase.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I I think um also with counting rhythm, so yeah, the fundaments is being able to count those rhythms, um, and then to add that musicality and portray it, it and you know, sort of like you said, like blend blending and bending things around, but the the basis is is still there. Um, and a nice way to demonstrate that um is in a four-beat cycle, first of all, um, but it's adding gaps, and this is another thing that um was for me amazing to you know, you you you you learn you learn one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four. But as soon as you start adding some gaps in, um it changes the feel of it. So one, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, one. Now, if you to play that, um it it sounds rather beautiful and it's these are just numbers, but you play those numbers and it's yeah, so one two three foot two three three two three foot, two three, one two three, uh, yeah. So it's just um, you know, and if you yeah, you know, I'm I'm always trying to dissect things and some music into the basic counting. Uh, so you see it, you know, it's almost like seeing the matrix and you're seeing all these numbers uh flashing down in green. Um, but it's cool because then you see the music and you feel the music, but you also know what's going behind behind the scenes. Um and so that that understanding's you know really fundamental, I feel. Um, and it's just um it's cool to be able to do that. But thirteen and a half, I mean, um adding in thirteen and a half, so we kept it at quite a slow pace. Um but if I were to count thirteen and a half, it would be um one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen and a half, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen and a half, one, and then we're back in again. But the concept of, like you said, um tee highs or basically to make compositions within thirteen and a half is to play on this thirteen and a half one and do a repetition of that three times, or a little a little place, a piece, a phrase played three times to be able to land back on one is is something that in terms of double repertoire we do a lot of. Um I I'm not sure what it is about threes. Um there was uh an idea about dihai or this phrase being repeated three times in order to land back on to the the first beat of the cycle is almost like the phrase is coming and it's coming and it's arrived. And it's that sort of anticipation of something's happening, yep, it's happening, we've understood, and it's happened. Uh, I'm not sure if that's that's why this concept of doing something three times to land on on the first beat is is played so much. But um, yeah, three seem to be a very um very nice way of presenting pieces, uh, which is what we call tihai.
SPEAKER_03And and within that tee hi, right, it's it's like uh it's a break from that cycle. So and there's gaps, absolutely. So if it was like four or
SPEAKER_02Four, then you're not going to do three sets of four, four, you're going to do like twos or fives or threes or sevens or that's it, and there's gaps that intersperse the phrases so that you know there's there's three separate phrases happening on a repetition. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay, so it might be seven, but you might then play six gap and then six and gap.
SPEAKER_02Yep, exactly. And it'll still land. And then that's the where the mathematics come in, but then the phrase itself to be musical. And so what we did with 13 and a half to play something simple three times to land back on the was to use this pulse that we played for the 13 and a half, which was uh uh one, two, two, one, two, three, one. One, two, three, one, two, three, one. Yeah, um, so that's what we used, and just rip repeated this one, two, three, one, two, three, one, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, one, two, three, one, two, three, one. And we used all the and then you have to work out where to where to pick up such a thing from in order to land on beat one. So, but you know, that you added melody to, and all of a sudden it's it's it's musical and it's not just purely mathematical. Um, so yeah, it was a lovely piece to to sort of delve in and sort of explore with you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So we talked about sevens, we talked a little bit about tee high, we talked a little bit about well, actually, even the four, just that looking at the four in that sort of beautifully simplistic way.
SPEAKER_02Nice.
SPEAKER_03How do you introduce for your students? Yeah, you start with four, right? That's what you said, correct? And then how do you start to introduce those other numbers?
SPEAKER_02That's a good question. Um, so with fours, you know, there's some basic um uh phrases that are played, and it's one hand by itself. So on on the bass drum you'll play ge. And on the treble drum, the treble um drum you would play ge. And so this is just a four-beat rhythm of ge ge or ge ge na, ge ge na. And from these simple, just a few little um um syllables, you would add in lots of variations and things. Um, but then slowly, slowly, then you'd start to put both hands together to play da, which is both hands, ki and na, played both at the same time, become da. And so you start to build up um just the students' sort of vocabulary and being able to play these certain things with with technique. Playing rhythmic cycles actually does take a long time. You could you could play the basics of a rhythmic cycle, um, but like we said about using the the bass drum for musicality, and then to add your own personality into that rhythmic cycle, that takes years, and I'm still still developing that and still you know enjoying that. So along the way, yes, you can you can teach um a rhythmic cycle of ten and sevens quite quickly, actually. But the musicality of it, and then to be able to accompany another instrument or a vocalist or someone who's singing a composition or playing a composition in that, that takes time.
SPEAKER_03How do you get to that point of moving from four to three?
SPEAKER_02Do you sort of so there's a lot of counting involved, yeah. So, like we said about you know, sort of being able to count into one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, and then delve in. Even fives, we would we would regard them as um uh one, two, and one, two, three. So one, two, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five. These these things are being taught, uh, and then the vocabulary on top, and then to to play it. Uh, so that's the the how is actually coming back to basic rhythmic rhythmic cycles, how to clap them, how to speak them, um, and so that's that's really that's really where it comes about. Um along the wave, uh something a bit more advanced is the concept of playing different different rhythmic cycles into the baseline four.
SPEAKER_01So if you were to do threes in fours, so we do one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, or even um still speak fours.
SPEAKER_02But you're singing threes.
SPEAKER_01One, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one.
SPEAKER_02And so this this you start to get further down the rabbit hole, as it were. Yeah. But you know, like like I said, just as I'm demonstrating that to you, this would be taught. But this means in that exact way. You mean which and and that's how it's taught to me. And all of a sudden you think, wow, so I can play fives in fours, sevens in fours. And this is uh this is actually a concept that's really deeply steeped into South Indian classical music. So Indian classical musical India is in terms of music is split north and south, and they're very different genres. Um, and in South A um South Indian classical music, this counting fives in fours and sevens in fours, and just you know just moving between them so seamlessly is um is something that those musicians they can do it in their sleep. They're just amazing at counting those rhythms, calculating, and just doing them on the spot. Uh so we we we learn those things as well, even as North Indian classical musicians, um, and uh fondly so.
SPEAKER_03I'm even trying to think here of what maybe if you're visually seeing anything as well, whether you're because obviously some people will have learnt from Western traditional notation and might actually sort of physically see, I think quite often I see sort of chord sheets, you know, sort of laid out and spaces of bars, and some people aren't visual at all, but what how does that work for you?
SPEAKER_02Um, so I was fortunate enough, and I've been fortunate enough to attend some workshops by um one of the you know mostly you know widely revered um best double I player in the world, um Ustad Zakir Husin. Um and I've even flown to Nice a couple of times just to attend their workshop and been been accepted onto their workshops, even um, and allowed to actually sit in the same room and to witness this great musician. And he um he blew my mind when he he described what he saw when counting these rhythms. What did he say? What did he see? He saw shapes. He saw shapes, he saw geometry, right? Wow. So he would he would literally do be poking in the air. So um, and um if I could just relay it in terms of the the accent of the one. Um so one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, drawing four corners of a square. One, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, triangle, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, and doing this. Um, and all of a sudden, you know, he's he's speaking in threes, but he's he's looking at triangles now, um, which is cool. Uh and but the the the exercise of accenting the one and doing different rhythms, steep you know, with the baseline four, um, you know, you it could be anything, it could be you know skipping to a step or you know, even uh sort of just lunging from side to side, but catching the one.
SPEAKER_03You you feel it more like a movement thing. So movement, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Because you know, where where we've been taught to, you know, uh we've done exercises upon exercise upon exercise of accenting the one, silencing all the other numbers in the fours, or putting gaps in. Um there's there's movement there. You've got to actually um be in that be in that moment and and become that that beat. And it can't just be speaking one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three. There's there's no feeling there. But if you're going one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, one, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, two, three, four, three, four, three, four, four, one, two, three, four, this sort of thing, and you're trying to exert it and and you know, demonstrate it and be that that beat, um, it yeah, you you do you almost you find yourself, you have to move, you have to um project in that way, and then you're able to actually play it on the doubler uh and communicate it through your hands on the instrument. Uh, and hopefully that's the that's what I try and do. I'm still trying.
SPEAKER_03Oh, you oh, you do it brilliantly. It's it's really fascinating from uh like classroom music perspective. You're talking about the the visual aspect, the sort of vocal aspect, yeah, and the the physical sort of kinesthetic engagement, I suppose, is the word, isn't it? And oh quite that's a nice phrase, I like that. I like that it's because some children or some people, it doesn't even have to be related to to young people. Some people will find the element of speaking a rhythm maybe particularly difficult, but then some some people really struggle to engage with their bodies because they don't do that very often, so it's there's a big barrier there, isn't there? And it's kind of these points of act access to sort of teach to teach these rhythms I think go cast my mind back to those sevens again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's that sort of you know, why why I was rubbish at sevens was because I was trying to access seven from a different way, but as soon as it was explained in a in a phrase that was vocal, and actually probably a little bit of that physical movement as well. I could I could feel seven, but it became accessible. It's the most familiar phrase to me now, you know, sort of absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you have to, and yeah, it becomes accessible. And once it's accessible and you can understand it, then then you can take it wherever you like. Um and yeah, I I yeah, I'm just uh I'm just in awe of being able to experience that and I'm very thankful that I got taught it in that way, rather than being a um being very monotone about this you're playing, because you could, you, you, you could, you could be a very proficient double player, um, but then there's there's you for me, there's the musicality gets lost. So you could be playing. Now only until I started stretching the bass did it become something interesting. For me, um it sounds fast and it sounds nice. Um but even this phrase played slowly, if you start adding accents, all of a sudden it it feels it it feels alive. So instead of so all I'm doing is trying to add accent in different places so that it's not just this this uh monotone experience, but there's there's dynamic uh there's dynamic there's a dynamic nature to the playing. Um but that comes from still being able to count rhythms and accentuate different parts of it and then relay it in your playing. So hopefully that I'm hoping that that came across that way.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, absolutely, man. Absolutely. It's that sort of well, rhythm can exist without melody, but melody can't kind of exist without rhythm, and it's just so you know, you yeah, you could have clapped that rhythm, couldn't you?
SPEAKER_02But then when you put that melodic to a and then then there's the the music's there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and then you you feel it rather than just numbers, which it's it kind of seems uh counterintuitive that talking about rhythm in just such a mathematical way would actually be such a feeling thing, but yeah, you can um yeah, particularly with the tablet, it's such a vocal instrument, isn't it? Yeah, which uh uh but before we go to finish as well, um I wouldn't want to go all the way without talking about actual some aspects of um North Indian classical that I think I've picked up which link beautifully to maybe understanding or being able to access the music, which is the dance element and then also the improv tuckade tukade ta-ta- ting-ta. Okay, yeah, you know.
SPEAKER_02So katak dance um and uh and Indian classical dance is again grounded in rhythms, counting rhythms, um, but then presenting them. Uh so the the rhythm all these rhythms and diff different complex uh mathematical phrases are actually played, um, are tapped on the feet. But then there is movements with the hands and expression with the face and the actual movement of the dance that portrays the melody, portrays the feeling, but you know, evokes that emotion that's trying to be um presented via dance. So yeah, uh you would in a in that sort of setting you would have uh percussion tabla um accompaniment, you would have musical melody being played, uh, and then the ghatak dance of the Indian classical dancer will be presenting you know complex rhythms and fast pieces with with the tapping of the feet and movement of the feet, um, along with the musicality and the the the uh movement with their with their dance. So yeah, gutak's um pretty amazing in that way.
SPEAKER_03And and then with the vocal sort of improv dueling element of the percussion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, actually all Indian classical music musicians are taught are are taught those rhythmic cycles, uh being able to count them, because only until you understand all those rhythmic cycles can you improvise on top of them. Um but the melody aspect with Indian classical music is this system of rag, uh, which um from my reading and my understanding, the the word rag comes from a Sanskrit derivation or um word called runj, which um also means rung, which is basically colour, emotion, mood. Um so this is uh a scale consisting, you know, made of different different notes that are being played or different characteristic notes in a characteristic phrase or a characteristic way, and an ascending and descending scale that could be the same going up, same coming down, or different. Um, but this uh when performed and when experienced, this this um piece is is to evoke a certain mood and certain, you know, it could be a certain time of day, certain season, certain feeling, um, and then packed in with rhythm, this is Indian classical music, melody and rhythm.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for doing it again as well. Yes. Don't let anyone know. I might leave that in just so people can know how much effort goes into the yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Well, that was that was my my entire fault. No, no, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_03It's fine. We're we we'll we'll I'll leave some mystery as to why why we did it again. Sure. But yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it, Tom.
SPEAKER_02I'm thankful even if uh yeah, we'll do let's do it again. It's just uh it's just nice. I mean, you know, what with lockdown, we've just not been able to meet in person. Uh so when when you did say about the podcast, one I was just so excited because I've been seeing you post things about the podcast that you've done before and uh felt very, very um honored to be invited as uh as a guest on that. So thank you very much. Pleasure, thank you.