The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 52 - ‘Songwriting In Music Ed Live From The Music Ed Expo’ Abi Thommes and Heather McClelland
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In this episode Chris chats with Abi Thommes of Arts2Educate and Heather McClelland. Thank you to our Sponsor Faber Music. Visit https://www.fabermusic.com/education and use Podcast1 at the check out for money off .
Welcome to the Music Education Podcast. This podcast is brought to you by the Soundstorm Music Education Hub and our sponsor, Favour Music. And incidentally, as a listener of this podcast, you can get 20% off Favour Music titles from FavourMusic.com forward slash education by using the code podcast1. Now this is a particularly special episode because it was recorded live at the Music and Drama Education Expo. And I have two fantastic guests, Abby Toms from Arts to Educate and Heather McLellan. So the subject of this episode is songwriting and music education. Let's get stuck in. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. You might not realise you might have just sat here to have a nice little sandwich that I'm sure was very reasonably priced, but you have uh stumbled into uh a live recording of a podcast, actually. Um This is the music education podcast happening right in front of you. Um I'm gonna introduce you to our guests for this wonderful conversation. But first of all, the music education podcast, ladies and gentlemen, is brought to you by the Soundstorm Music Education Hub. You deserve a whoop whoop from the table over there. Yeah, there you go. Award-winning, no less, and Fabre music. Wonderful! So, without further ado, we have two fantastic guests here. Can we have a round of applause for Abby Toms and Heather McClellan? And I'm Chris. So we're talking about songwriting. Can we start off with a bit of a who you are, what you do? Should we start with Abby and work our way across?
SPEAKER_03So, my name is Abby. Um, I run the company Arts to Educate, um, and we bring art, music, and drama workshops into primary schools. Um, and an element of that is songwriting, and actually is our favourite part of that. Um I'm excited to talk more about it.
SPEAKER_04Wonderful, thank you. Heather.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, so my name is Heather McClelland. Um I am the lead artist for a project called Vocal Beats, um, which is a music making program that we run in um at Royal Marsden Hospital, Royal Brompton Hospital, and Harefield, Brompton and Harefield Hospital. And um, we basically do like singing, beatboxing, um, performance stuff, but also lots of songwriting. Um, and I also just do lots of songwriting in different capacities, like with the older young musicians, um, have done lots of stuff with adults, so kind of a really vast array of stuff, and I perform and write um in my other side of life too.
SPEAKER_04Amazing, thank you. So, songwriting is the subject, but we might end up somewhere completely different. Um, maybe we should start off with understanding what you both think is important about songwriting in education. Presuming you do think it's important and you haven't just fallen into it by accident. Should we start with Abby again?
unknownPerfect.
SPEAKER_03Um, so I guess as a young girl, I was did a lot of music. Um I was kind of trained classically on the piano, the flute. Um, I was a very emotional young person, found that kind of things difficult. And one day my mum just said, why don't you just write a song about it? Write a song about what you're feeling. And I was like, oh, okay, I guess I guess I could try that. And it really worked for me. I'm like, oh, I love I love this songwriting thing.
SPEAKER_04Is it a good song, Abby?
SPEAKER_03Is it I actually can remember the song, but I'm not gonna do that yet. Slash maybe not ever. It's like sometimes it comes up in my head, I'm like, oh, that's that song again. Um and then with um my GCSEs and even A levels, there are certain things, especially GCSEs actually, there are certain things I really struggle to remember, and I really in the science curriculum, there are certain um, I guess, topics which I kind of wrote different like raps do and different songs, and I'd be there in the exam kind of singing my little song, and I'm like, oh, that's my answer, here we go. Um, and so because I found it so um important, it really helped me. I think, okay, well, if I did, surely it's gonna help young people, and that's kind of where lots of my workshops have started. Um, yeah, to help them with their education. So as much as it's fun, because it's really fun, they kind of remember things, and when they turn to their writing, they kind of like have these phrases in their head which they kind of can just like write on the page and they feel it, and they kind of can get into role as a character through song, and that is really exciting for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I could think similarly to Abby, I very much remember my teenage angst or first songwriting experience. Um, and I guess for me it's always just been a really integral part of like who I am and how I feel that yeah, how I express myself. Um, and it's been really interesting taking songwriting into a hospital environment. Um, because so the music programme, just to give you a little more of an overview, we we do all kinds of different things with music, so it's not just that we're just going in there just to do songwriting, but as and when it's appropriate, it can be a really powerful and amazing tool because we work with young people and with chronic health conditions, and in these environments, often people can feel like a real lack of control in their lives, and um, so all of the music making that we do is very much like a person-led thing, and we're always trying to kind of let them have some autonomy in the work that we do with them, and songwriting, I guess, is the kind of ultimate space for that, so it's like a really powerful place for people to express themselves. Um, you know, for people I've had young people that are kind of, you know, maybe they're writing about how they're feeling about stuff, maybe they're writing, yeah, about kind of their perspective in life, maybe they're just having a really great time collaborating with other people and writing stuff. Maybe it might even be that I do a song that's like a really fun song based on the fact that I've seen a young person's bed has a unicorn on and they clearly love unicorns, so we're like, let's write a song about unicorns. So it's very like varied, but I think it's just like a really powerful way to give people space for their own self-expression.
SPEAKER_04So get getting stuck in straight away. I mean, I think you mentioned control there, and so my feeling of the creative process is, and this is part inspired by Eve actually, and what she said, and how it's this continuum between sort of acceptance or surrender where you're you're just letting things be, and then the other end of the spectrum where you're trying to control it, control it when it comes to process, and for both of you, because it you're working in such different settings, how does that work? How does that sort of maybe you just want to talk about how you w work with a student, how you start off, but obviously, how much do you give to a student? Do you start with a chord sequence? Do you start with a subject matter? Do you, if there's an idea that's really derailing the song and taking it somewhere else, do you sort of try and come this way? Come this way, that chord's gonna sound better. You know, where does it go?
SPEAKER_00I think okay, that's a really good question. Um, I guess it would literally depend person to person. Um, my general philosophy, and I think it it's really important for me in my working, it's like give as much as someone needs, but give as little as possible, as in like don't get in the way. So I kind of try really hard to give that person as much space as possible for their own creativity, and if they need guidance, then I will be there and I'll help, but I won't. And it's it's really funny actually, because I remember working with another practitioner, and I remember that we were with a young person, and I was saying, Oh, what should we to the young person, like, oh, I can't really think, what should we make this song about? And and they would say, Oh, I I don't know, or maybe this, and then I'd be like, Okay, and then I'm like, how does it go? I can't really think. And and the other practitioner was like, Well, we could say this, and it's like, yeah, I I know what we could say, but the point is I'm trying to like make the person tell me what to say. So I guess I try really hard to like. There's two things you're always trying to give space for creativity, so you like don't just say, like, right, just write a song. You're like, okay, I'm gonna give you a real gentle guidance, like maybe I'll start with some chords, and then maybe I'll teach them about how they can improvise in a really safe, chilled out, like fun, step-by-step way, doesn't feel intimidating. Um, and then from that, you know, maybe we'll do some automatic writing, like, well, we'll write some stuff and we've got some lyrics, but what or maybe often what actually happens is people come and they've already got a really clear idea in their mind. They already have a poem or they already have something. So I feel like my role is to kind of help them translate that. But bring obviously, I'm a performing artist, so I have stuff, and that the people I work with are all amazing artists, so we have a lot to bring, like as and when the people need it, but also it's I feel like it's just not it's about like kind of not imposing our ideas, and um, even on a simple level, I've got a five-year-old, and it was really funny the other day because he was like, he was making up a song, and my husband, who's another musician, came and said to him, and my son was like, you know, put some chords to this, and my husband like didn't listen exactly to what he was singing, and he just plays some chords, and I was saying, Oh no, no, you need to pitch match, like you need to hear the note he's singing, and then you need to make the chords. And my husband thought I was being really pedantic, but I was like, no, no, no, it's because like you're he's he's telling you, like, he knows what he wants.
SPEAKER_04His chord sequence might be better.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like he knows, he knows what he wants, so it's that lit listen, I'd say.
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SPEAKER_04That's like a massive challenge for all music education situations, anyway, isn't it? Is like how much you give. And I'm uh interested because you guys are working in such disparate situations. Is disparate the right word? Or am I just I'm using words I don't understand what they mean again. Um I'm wondering about the sort of product and process bit. So I'd imagine maybe in a hospital, uh maybe there's not such a pressure to have a product at the end of it. But I'm imagining if you're writing about the Egyptians with year three, and your song at the end of the day is just awful. Right, that's a problem, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Um, yeah, I guess that is a bit more of a problem. So I'm I am very similar because you do want that performance at the end of the day, and you have other teachers and other kind of classes coming in, so you want, I guess there's that pressure to kind of make sure it is like a semi-good song. But similar, like when the children are giving me ideas, and I guess quite a lot, I guess when I go in, it's kind of lots of times it's a one-off workshop. So I have kind of like prepped some of the song, I've kind of like maybe prepped the first verse, and then they're gonna kind of like kind of rewrite some kind of lyrics to gonna go on top of that tune, kind of as like a simple kind of workshop. Um, but once again, if they are giving me lyrics that I'm like, oh, there could be something different, but it's like that's a I never think that. Um, you you take it because like that is their idea and you want that to be valued. And I think so much of the time in an education setting, as so I used to be a teacher, and it was so I guess like so strict with so many rules, and I'm like, this is a creative place. If they are giving me some lyrics, I want to celebrate that, and that is right, and that will be in the song. And you can see their little faces just smiling, like, that's my line, that that's my line. And at the end, when I'm asked, kind of what's you know, what were you proud of? I'm really proud of my line that I created, and I'm like, oh, hopefully they'll hold on to that, that's so great. And I guess if I guess the way that I go in quite a lot, so as you say, if I'm doing an Egyptian workshop and I've created this like mini Egyptian song, if they have thought of the line for the verse, they are gonna remember that then, and that's kind of gonna form part of their learning and gonna help them in their history and their English, and otherwise, if it comes from me, I don't feel that they're gonna kind of take it in so much.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I was gonna say, like, equally it you listen and and you know, there might be ways where someone said something and and it's a bit kind of clunky, and you're like, Oh, could we like you know, can we what about if we put this word, like you know, you can, it's not about like not expecting a high standard and not helping them reach a high standard, but it's really for me, just and sounds similar, just trying not to impose just giving them the space as well and sort of trusting that they do know and then helping kind of guide them. But I guess it's always a balance between how do you, yeah, like how do you help someone, how much do you give, how much do you give space, how how much do you give feedback. Even you know, when I'm working sometimes, when I'm working with Oldbury young musicians, they're like, I mean, these young people are phenomenally talented. I feel humbled when I'm doing stuff with them, but it's like they come and show a song, and you're like, oh, how much am I supposed to be giving you like feedback? Because I equally, you know, it's your journey, like I will give feedback and you can give critical feedback, but equally it's like it's a real balance, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Isn't it between this thing in the back of your head though, as well, that because you know that journey of songwriting, and you know when someone's going down that path that uh uh maybe they're getting frustrated, the ideas are kind of leading, you you know it's going to a dead end. Then that's sort of in the back of your head, right? Sort of subtly nudging them towards the five chord rather than the sort of crazy dissonant thing that they've put in. Do you think that's fair to say that that's still there?
SPEAKER_00Or yeah, and and I think um I think there was a really interesting um slightly off-topic, but kind of the same as like how much do you give someone feedback? So I was working with a young person once, and they really wrote this amazing poem about um their condition, and it was really personal, and and it was really their expression of living with a disability, and so but it had about 20 verses, and I was like, Okay, this is amazing, but like if you have a song, like do you want 20 verses in this song? Because that's a bit long, but equally, I'm not invalidating what you're saying. And I think they at first kind of quite struggled with like, yeah, but I want to say all this stuff, and I was like, Oh my god, how do I balance this? And and that was genuinely this was actually really hard as a facilitator, and then um Especially such emotional content that you would be like guy, yeah, lose that verse about how you feel about exactly so. I was really like treading carefully, like, oh, how can we and saying to him, like, maybe like we could try and say that, but we could like say it, could we kind of condense it, or where are you saying the same thing? And and um, yeah, and I think for both of us it was quite a challenge, and then I think at the end, then what I did is I sort of sum what he'd what he'd done and like recorded it for him, and he sent me an email back and said, You're right, it is too long, isn't it? And I was like, okay, but it was this balance where I was like, I don't, you know, it's a real, it's a navigation process that we're we're always learning, I guess.
SPEAKER_04Okay, what about the extreme uh way of looking at it of where you've actually got to let the student completely fail and arrive at a song that they're not happy with? Is that something that should be allowed to happen? Or do you think actually that's kind of pointless because we're trying to create something here and it's worth it's worth it? Sorry, it's a bit heavy. So we line up.
SPEAKER_03Um so I guess different. So I guess when I go into whole classes, I feel like lots of times we're kind of writing as a whole class. Sometimes when they have group work, oh you don't I guess I kind of don't want the child or the group to fail. Um so I guess you if they're struggling, maybe kind of to go through that process a little bit and to kind of asking them questions, but I guess then maybe I would sweep in a little bit and to help them because you do want them to feel good at the end of a session and to kind of come out with something that they're proud of.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think it's a really big thing. I I feel quite passionate about songwriting because I I genuinely believe everybody has the capacity to write a song. Like I think everyone, like, because I could give you as if you needed a really like specific um set of tools, like so. Say someone felt very daunted about being creative, I could give a really clear set of tools, like some lyric starters, some really clear like melody pieces, like a puzzle, pieces of a puzzle, and then you could put those pieces together and help that we could put that together, or you know, you could collaboratively I could help you write a song. Anyone can do it, but I think it's a really important thing to sort of succeed, whether not whether that's a good or bad song, but it's like for that person to leave feeling like, oh wow, I've got this inside of me, and I didn't know that, so I would I would find it hard to let someone fail. Whatever that means, you know. I think I would definitely feel like I because at that point, like if someone was really struggling, I can always one thing I quite enjoy is like if someone's really not a very confident singer and they might come up with an idea or they might say something and it doesn't sound, you know, it doesn't flow that well, but then you can and they'll sort of be singing it and it's not it's not quite landing, and then you can make their idea sound great because you can sing it and you're like, is this what you mean? And sing it back, and they're like, Oh yeah, you know, so that's you can you can kind of always make people's stuff sound good, I think. You're like, give me anything, I'll make you sound good.
SPEAKER_03Lots of time, sorry. Um I always like to loosen them up as well, so kind of like to swoop straight into kind of like we're gonna write a song. So it's like doing little activities to kind of build it up and kind of kind of shaking it off and kind of like having a bit of fun, but even starting off with nursery rhymes, and it's like okay, let's take a simple nursery rhyme, let's kind of like maybe change some of the words. Or um a favourite one of mine is um it's a flea and a fly and a flu. Do you know that as a no? Shall I shall I go for it?
SPEAKER_05Go nuts.
SPEAKER_03And it's just it's really fun. So it goes, a flea and a fly and a flu were in prison, so what should they do? Said the flea let us fly, said the fly let us flee. Oh no, I got it. Said the flea let us fly, said the fly let us flee. So they flew through a floor in the flu. And kids love it, so key stage show are like, oh yeah, this is really fun. And then we change the words, and it can be as silly and ridiculous as possible. It doesn't even have to kind of completely make sense, and then it kind of like loosens up, loosens them up to go into the next part of the songwriting.
SPEAKER_04Wonderful, which is nice. That we're naturally and organically working our way to process here, basically, aren't we? Um, because I'm sure all of this audience do amazing songwriting and music education. Um they look like the type. Um but I reckon it would be cool to just have that real in-depth insight of stage one to finished product with you, Abby, first, maybe. Yeah. How how do you I mean that sounds like a wonderful way to start with, anyway, just changing lyrics of existing things. What's your sort of top tips of process?
SPEAKER_03That's such a top one for mine, and I love that as a song as well. So sometimes I give um kind of three new kind of things for them to work off. So if it's a fleet and a fly and a flu, maybe we've got like a bear and a bird and a balloon. So I'm kind of like, okay, now write a new song about a bear and a bird and a balloon. And they're often their little groups kind of doing that. Or we've got a topic, so say we're writing about the music expo, so it's kind of like we're here at the music expo and sitting on a stage, and they kind of like go off and they're like, oh, okay, we can literally write about anything. Um, and then I guess kind of moving on from that, kind of like kind of bringing tunes into it, which is really lovely, and so then they're actually singing, but then as you say, I guess if I'm if I'm doing kind of a one-day workshop, it is very lyric-based. When I get kind of more time to kind of work with the school and I kind of have a term's worth of sessions, then to move on to kind of the chords and the melody is just really lovely, but building that up so slowly, and even kind of taking other chords, so if they know a song that they know, taking those chords, can they sing new melodies over that and just kind of playing around with it and like kind of just having fun, like just singing around and not but working on that familiar foundation all the time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So you're you're usually an inclined. Aren't you right? So I mean that's a collaborative nightmare, isn't it? I mean, writing with one other person is bad enough, especially if their ego is anywhere near as big as your own or my own. But what about 30 egos all wanting to put? So how do you sort of deal with that collaborative element? Is it just like hands up, or is it just scream lyrics at me, children?
SPEAKER_03So sometimes I always get them to talk to each other. I like um something called, I think what do I call it? Like popcorn, uh popcorn ideas. So kind of like they kind of give me lots of their ideas. So say it's about, I don't know, the music expos. So then they're kind of saying, music, expo, performers, ideas, and they're each kind of like saying things to me. So now I'm writing all these ideas down on the board, and then they kind of go back, and then they're writing on whiteboards kind of by themselves, and they're already creating their own verses, kind of like maybe with a buddy, maybe in like groups of three, and then we feed back. And I normally take loads of ideas, and then we kind of like reframe and kind of think, okay, what's that first line? Okay, let's kind of have a vote and kind of so it's really useful for the same.
SPEAKER_04So is it starting small so that we're not having little Jimmy writes a whole verse and then no one else has got something to put in? So you're starting with si single words, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so then almost it feels like more of them have kind of taken a part in that. Because you're right, when you've got 30 kids, you do want lots of them to have taken part. You don't want one of them to be sitting at the back and just kind of not felt that it's not their song, you want it to feel yeah, this is this is our song and feel proud of it. And you find that when you do it, they really remember their verse. So sometimes I go in with a verse and they kind of don't remember it, but because they have written that, suddenly when they're kind of singing the performance, that's the verse, and they've kind of got it in their heads because they've really thought of those those words, which is really nice. But yeah, once you develop it more and kind of getting like groups of young people kind of like maybe playing on the piano and then kind of like singing on top and understanding that a bit more, that's when it can get really exciting as well.
SPEAKER_04Okay, fantastic. Thank you. Good tips, Heather. What's your what's your process to share with people?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think similarly, it's about um yeah, kind of making it really gradual. And I think with any music education, it's about if you went into a situation and sort of said, hi, you need to sing immediately, people would freak out, but is that kind of like step by step by step that the person doesn't even know that they're so you're kind of really gently going? Um so I would probably start, I mean, this could be in a group or one-to-one, but um I would probably start with giving them an automatic response, a kind of stream of consciousness writing thing. So I might find like a really beautiful poetic sentence, like yeah, oh I love that I'm calling it beautiful, but something like evocative for them that say like the whispers of the shadow silently told me, and then make them all write for like three minutes or something and get them to kind of do some writing and then what associated with that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you start, so I do a literal sentence starter and get them to continue, and I'll time it. So it's just like you can't get it wrong, it doesn't matter, whatever you do, just see what comes out of your mind, it doesn't matter. Um, I would obviously not tell them that we're gonna then read those out because that would freak them out, but then I would get them to read out what they've written, and um and from that, we'll kind of often what's really interesting is people will come up with really beautiful poetic things, but then in order to not be like, all right, you've written that verse, you've written that, I'll I'll say, okay, listen to each other's things, and and if you hear something beautiful, write down like what you hear, like write down things that stay with you. So you're kind of just saying, like, we're just making ingredients right now, guys. Like, don't think about it. All we're doing is we're making ingredients that we're gonna put into the pot and we're gonna do this thing. So this isn't a I've done a lot of this group like online. We did a lot of this over Zoom during during lockdown. Um, and then I this is where I can show a little demo if you want. Yeah. I mean, I feel like this is a 30-second demo, so it doesn't justify the mic, but we'll try. Um so then I would kind of want them to be as like as they're being quite like free in terms of the lyrics, and I want it to be a very organic process, I want to also try and find that same um like fluidity with melody writing. So I would kind of look at like different melodic constructs and say, oh, you know, I I want you to, I'm gonna find a really simple set of chords. So I might do like G, E minor 7, A minor, D7, like something really just kind of like straightforward, make a little loop, just keep looping that round. And then I would, depending on the people, depending on their confidence, I would then do something like um, okay, we're just gonna improvise and we're gonna do a call and response. So I'll improvise something. I'm not gonna make you guys do it right now, but you can if you want, but I'll let you just not. In that I feel like I'm like, Abby, it's your time to shy and go. No. Um, but what I'll do is I'll so I might say to them, okay, you hear these chords and you can improvise, but rather than just saying, make something up, I'll say, okay, I want you to think like long note. So for example, I'd show them like so, like a melody that's kind of focused on a long note, they could then copy that and do something. So all you have in your mind is like long extended note, or then it could be like short notes, like da da da da da da da da da. Or then it could be like low to high. Or high to low. You know, but that I'm just sort of, but I'm but I'm not just saying make something up, I'm saying these are some little things. So if you're stuck, you don't need to know what's gonna come out of your mouth, just like think high to low and then just see what happens. Or if there's a nice um phrase from something that we've written, then maybe we could take that and put that in, or maybe if they felt confident they could start incorporating words, or maybe we take a word, or like so it kind of depends, but it's all about step by step breaking it down, is the kind of kind of avoids that like blank page.
SPEAKER_04Exactly.
SPEAKER_00Everybody would be able to write something. You'll be able to take something. If they literally were like, I I'm really freaking out about the melody, that's fine. I could then take their lyrics and put it into the melody, but like I think generally people will actually give it a go, and people are all different levels, so sometimes maybe someone will, you know, they would in lockdown, for example, they would then sing something back, and even if it wasn't necessarily like pitched with the chords, I could kind of hear what they were trying to do, and I could kind of then help them put it into that. So, yeah, that's a mini demo.
SPEAKER_04Amazing, thank you. Abby Toms.
SPEAKER_03Yes, Chris.
SPEAKER_04I feel I feel I want I don't want this to pass by without hearing a song about Egyptians on the piano.
SPEAKER_03I keep going backwards and forwards in my head because I was like, okay, initially I was gonna do a little good demo of like the ukulele track. Um, and it's a really fun song. I actually wrote it over lockdown to kind of kind of bring happiness to the world, um, and then children to write kind of happy kind of lyrics from that. And then I saw there was a piano on the stage, and I thought, oh, maybe I could do an Egyptian demo. Um so lots of our workshops, I guess, are topic-based. So then the school kind of wants me to do a workshop kind of based on yeah, something that learn about Stone Age is another classic one. Um, the Romans, great songs based on all these things.
SPEAKER_04That's what a hell of an album you've got there of collections of of uh yeah, topics from schools. So you you go in and you collaboratively write these songs, right?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so I guess the Egyptian workshop is I'm really excited. Um, we will um we're gonna do some drama, we're acting as archaeologists. Um, they're kind of like finding kind of Tutankhamun's tomb for the first time, and they're kind of taking them through step by step, and each class is gonna have a different step to the kind of finding of his tomb. So that drama piece is then gonna be transferred to their verse in the song. So then at the end of the day, we're gonna perform it, and it's going to be each verse telling the story of the finding of Tutankhamun's tomb being performed at a different to different year group. So hopefully then they'll remember how um how it was all found, which is really exciting. And I learned so much from it, Chris.
SPEAKER_04Okay, so it's so it's more like a factual songwriting exercise rather than an emotive or expressive thing. Is it does it still end up being expressive, do you think?
SPEAKER_03Or is that I guess sorry, I guess those ones are definitely more factual. I've also written some school songs, so really think about their school and what it means to them. And that's really lovely because I guess that kind of takes a bit more of kind of like what school means to them, what their friends mean to them, and kind of like building kind of their kind of school values, which is really lovely. But yeah, maybe less about kind of what they're feeling, which that is something which I would like to do more, because that's that's why I write, because it's more about my emotions and feelings, and it helps me.
SPEAKER_04It's great to have the two roles there though, because of the uh well, the absolute validity of each approach. Let's tell tell us more about the Egyptians. I want to I want to hear this absolute banger.
SPEAKER_03You're really welcome, Jucy. You can do the piano. Shall I do just a little bit of the Egyptian song? Yeah, I want to have a lot of people.
SPEAKER_04We need to learn about the Egyptians. We've got to give the people what the people want. And the people want the Egyptian song. I can see can you tell us a little bit about how it was written as well, maybe so we can sort of, you know, hear what chords are underneath it.
SPEAKER_03Did you give the kids the chords or you know what what's the um so this is kind of I've written this before I've gone into the school, so actually I was given the um I was given the topic by Soundstorm, um, and the school wanted an Egyptian workshop. Um so I was actually, I guess I was struggling for a few weeks. Sometimes for me, I have to really like be in the zone to kind of like start writing a song. Um then I'm like, okay, I need to just do this, I need to write the Egyptian song. Um so I just start messing around on the piano with chords and just kind of like humming and just kind of lowering some melodies, um, kind of got some kind of like ideas in front of me, and then the lyrics just kind of flow and come. Some enjoy. So we would have done all the drama.
SPEAKER_02We are on an adventure as we enter the valley of the kings. Look for signs of the tomb in the dry heart earth. Will we find what we have been looking for? From a sight will we find this tomb to tell me Pharaoh King Fever King Oh so special this Pharaoh King Fever King, Fever King.
SPEAKER_05And so we would learn the chorus, and we're there we can like hopefully wow ancient Egypt rocks, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_03It does rock. Um yeah, so we would definitely learn the chorus, we kind of get them kind of like jumping about. I would I'm gonna include some instruments in that. I'm thinking sort of boom whackers in the teeth and cal moon kind of bit because that's kind of fun, and then we get onto the songwriting for their next verse. And I would always kind of lur that verse first. I want them to get my lyrics out of their head and something I do and kind of like kind of literally get them to kind of throw it away, and then we kind of lur the first verse, start to do that kind of like popcorn lyric writing, so they're just like loads of words and phrases, and then I just start to kind of well, I don't I don't they could just start to put those phrases together and we suddenly have a magnificent song about the Egyptians.
SPEAKER_04Amazing. I'm speechless. That was that was that was a thing of beauty, Abby. Thank you so much. Wonderful. Well, it's it's super cool just to hear that the sort of different processes and stuff, and I think that that unifying thing of not going with a blank page, I think is a really great takeaway, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00And one of the things that um speaking about uh like we talked briefly about lockdown and actually where I did use that sent that very sentence starter, because I was like, what sentence starter do I use? And and I actually helped some young people to write a really beautiful song um with it. But then we would um so this was during lockdown working with other great artists online, and um, and then we kind of like through the wonders of getting them to sing into their phones and stuff, you know, we get it, got them all to collaborate on recording of really yeah, a track which was you know actually very poetic and very expressive about the challenges that they were facing, but in a poetic way. But then we got them, the young people that we'd done these various workshops with, to kind of help co-lead another big workshop for singing for other for a um music hub. So they kind of transferred their skills and helped us to like co-lead online songwriting workshops, which was really special to see them, yeah, and see accessibility, like yeah, basically, how you can, yeah, anyone can write a song.
SPEAKER_04Fantastic. I I think that uh just that interesting point of singing into phones is something that we haven't even really discussed that sort of like technological element of bringing it in. Um what other elements are you guys sort of throwing into your songwriting as tools there?
SPEAKER_03I definitely do that myself. So it's like when I suddenly have an idea, because sometimes it creates it doesn't you don't just sit down and have ideas. So I think that's what we've got to remember sometimes with young people as well, is that we're we don't always have the creative ideas, but I can be driving or going for a walk, and I'm like, oh, I need to remember that idea. And yeah, the phone is an amazing tool for that.
SPEAKER_00It's an amazing tool. So I I always say to anyone that's writing a song, like, I I never remember anything I do, so every time I'm making something up for myself, yeah, I have to record it. But what we found was also using voice memos, actually, it just took you know, I know that there's more sophisticated ways you can get young people to record from home, but actually everyone has a phone. Make it accessible. We could yeah, people could record as a voice memo. I've recently worked with a young person who recorded a voice, you know, records a voice memo, sends me her vocal track. I, you know, sh we're getting a young person from another hospital to make his really into music production to make a track, the backing track for her. They're collaborating, you know, using voice, voice memos as, you know, with a bit of reverb on, they're pretty good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Amazing. Thank you so much. I think I think we've had a a beautiful chat, haven't we? We've we've had amazing demos. Um and uh yeah, I feel I've got some tools to go and do some some songwriting with. I'm gonna uh leave with one little question for for both of you. Um what do you think uh is the sort of future role of songwriting in schools and music education settings? Do you think uh it's something that we're gonna see more of this or do you do you think it's gonna sort of shrink away as society maybe becomes more focused on product rather than process? You know what I'm uh I'm waffling. Go on.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I really hope not. Um it's just such an enjoyable thing to do. Um so I hope that it wouldn't go. And I think it can be a part of, I think if I'm thinking just about primary education, I think it could be a part of so many like lessons, not just in music. Um and I that for me is really important. And kind of when I go into schools, it's not just this is a music lesson, it's kind of how can we integrate music into kind of history and science and kind of English, and it feels so important to like I guess there are so many different ways to learn, and songwriting always helped me, so I think it should continue because it's gonna continue to help others, hopefully.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think um I think they're probably simultaneously is there's less recognition and more recognition, and maybe like less funding and maybe more recognition is what I'd say. Um, but I think that maybe with technology, like there is that does make things more accessible, so young people probably have more capacity and and space and yeah, like resources to do things on various different apps, or you know it seems like the the ultimate time to be doing that because they can go and do it at home. Yeah, they can just literally do it and record something straight away. And I think um there's a really interesting youth music report that came out um in 2021 about um songwriting and self-expression and well-being for young people, and it's actually really interesting to kind of read that recognition of them talking about you know the importance of having their own voice and yeah, what it had the benefits of songwriting. Because I think I I was doing all this stuff and thinking, God, there's so much they're getting from this, and then like it's really interesting when you kind of see it written down, you're like, oh yeah, that's it, that's it. It is, it's like such an integral part, and you know, and I know it's like it's it's something which is for me, it's like really important in my own life to kind of have that connection and relationship, like with that's the most um it's kind of hard to explain, but I'd say that's my most like self kind of advice, or when if you're just feeling a bit like lost or whatever in the mo, then actually sitting down and writing a song is kind of like quite a sort of almost spiritual experience in a moment where I'll have that kind of relationship with myself, or give you know, yeah, um, self-fulfilled, I guess. Um, so I can really see the benefits, and I can really see that actually you're giving people such a good tool, giving them that kind of freedom for that self-expression, and it is really important for people's well-being. So hopefully we will continue to become aware, and and I think, but we are, aren't we? Like in society, we're becoming a bit more aware of the arts, even if the funding is cutting and cut a bit.
SPEAKER_04It's a strange paradox, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Amazing. I think that's a perfect place to leave it. Thank you so much. Thank you, audience, for listening. Um this is the music education podcast, just in case you're wondering what's happening here, and you can go and listen to this very recording and hear all the interesting things that were said at the beginning, or all the other wonderful podcasts that are recorded there. Thank you, Nikolai, for making stuff sound cool. Thank you, Music Teacher Magazine, for being a media partner, and to Faber Music for being our sponsor, and to SoundStorm for making it possible. And thank you with a huge round of applause to Heather McLelland and Abby Thomas. Thank you. So there you go. I hope you enjoyed that episode. Thank you to Soundstorm and to our sponsor Faber Music, and thank you so much to you for listening.