The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 56 - ‘So What Is Teaching Really About?' Paul Harris
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In this episode Chris chats with Paul Harris about music education. Thank you to our Sponsor Faber Music. Visit https://www.fabermusic.com/education and use Podcast1 at the check out for money off. This podcast is brought to you by Soundstorm.
Welcome to the Music Education Podcast. I'm Chris of the Chris Woods Groove Orchestra, and this podcast is brought to you by the Soundstorm Music Education Hub and our sponsor, Favor Music. Now if you're looking for a fascinating conversation around music education with an inspiring music educator and music ed author, then this is the pop-up and the episode for you. This time I'm chatting with Favre author Paul Harris. Now Paul's got a lot of really wonderful things to say about music education, which is helpfully illustrated by the fact that he's created and written an incredible amount of fantastic publications on the very subject of music education. And our conversation weaves around so many different ideas and topics, but they're all thought-provoking, food-for-thought kind of stuff. Paul asks, what are your conditions for teaching? We talk about flow, flow state, we talk a lot about also the concept of mistakes and whether your students should even be in a position of making mistakes. We talk also about managing your own behaviour and managing your own emotions as a teacher, which I think is really big stuff in the music education space. And there's one thing that Paul also says, he talks about the classroom as a sacred space, which I think is really, really exciting. Now, as a listener to this podcast, you have the ability to have 20% off Faber titles. Just simply head to Fabermusic.com forward slash education and use the code podcast1 at the checkout. Now there you'll find a whole range of exciting titles and of course a whole range of exciting titles by Paul Harris himself. I'm particularly interested in his book, The Virtuoso Teacher, which he references in this conversation a couple of times. And now I'm sure you'll love listening to this episode as I really enjoyed this conversation. In fact, I think both of us really enjoyed this conversation. Before we get stuck in, I would love to ask you to get in touch with any guests or conversations or topics that you would like us to cover. Maybe it's a particular person you would love to hear on the podcast having a conversation, or maybe there's an issue in Music Ed that you think isn't being covered or discussed, and you would like to hear us talking about that. So please get in touch. You can email me direct at contact at chriswoodsgroove.co.uk. Enjoy the episode. Paul, thank you so much for joining me this morning. Can we start off with uh who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_01Well, uh I'm a musician and I do music. Um and I've always done music really. I love music. Uh I think it's one of the great things in life. It uh uh when you when you're playing, it takes you to uh a place, uh a reality that is probably better than reality. Um and uh and and I enjoy that and I think other people enjoy it too. One of my absolute favorite metaphors in uh in the world really is uh I mean I'm a clarinetist and uh I do a certain amount of uh playing with other people, uh ensemble playing, chamber music, occasionally in orchestras. And one of my favorite metaphors is that uh let's take the orchestral metaphor, for example. Um here you have an orchestra, uh maybe a hundred people in it. Uh they're most of them playing different instruments, doing different things. They're playing different music, different notes, um, but they're doing it together, and the the sound is wonderful, it's harmonious, and and that's what we need in the world today. We need a bit of harmony, um, because you know you go around and all you see is people being angry and uh fighting each other. Um so I think the the metaphor of music, especially the metaphor of playing music together, uh, is one of the great metaphors, and that's why I love doing it. I I'm a musician.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful, thank you. I mean, straight away to jump on um you saying uh sort of a a moving a musician or someone playing music to another reality, like a better reality, and it just makes me think of the past the past two episodes actually that we've been doing have been looking at that deeper connection in music. Um we arrived at the word liminality or arriving at a liminal space um to try and explain that other thing that happens. What do you call it?
SPEAKER_01Do you have a a sort of a way of describing that other I I don't you I didn't I don't use that I don't use the word liminality to describe that particular space actually. I do use the word liminity a lot in my work. Um the the the uh because I mean uh I I'm sure you know that one of the models of uh learning uh very much uh embraces the understanding of liminal space. And I love that particular model of learning. I there are two models of learning which I like. One is the Maslow model, which wasn't actually invented by Abraham Maslow, as as you probably know, um, but but it is is constantly called the Maslow model. I could talk about that too.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, give it give us presume I definitely know nothing, but presume you know anyone listening doesn't know something yourself.
SPEAKER_01I mean we we've we've we've slightly gone off your your following. We can come back to that in a second. Um but you know but being fascinated by teaching, obviously I I talk about learning um at times in my talks. Um and the two models I like. One is the Maslow model, which was actually invented by a man called Peter Broadbent, although he's often forgotten, unfortunately. And Abraham Maslow was a great uh educator. And and the Maslow model is basically we start from a place of unconscious incompetence, so we don't know dotted rhythms, for example. Never heard of them. Um uh and then you know our teacher turns the page over, and the next thing on the tutor book is dotted rhythms. So we're now consciously incompetent. We haven't heard of dotted rhythms, but we can't operate them. Uh, then we go through that teaching thing uh and we start learning, and gradually we become consciously competent. Um I can now do dotted rhythms, but I have to think about it. And finally we get to the point of unconscious competence. So I can now do dotted rhythms, but I don't really have to think about it because I know instinctively how to do it. So that's Maslow's model of learning, unconscious incompetence through conscious incompetence to conscious competence to uh unconscious incompetence, and it's a very perfectly very good way of understanding learning, and it it's what happens. But one I like even more um is is the model that that that has within its central area liminal space, which is what you were just talking about. Uh, and and the word liminal really it means sort of in between, like a hallway is a kind of a a liminal space. Um and and so it's very similar. You can map this model onto the Maslow model. Uh we start uh in a place where we don't know. I don't know something, and then we go through that teaching experience, teaching and learning experience, where we are basically in what what in this particular model is called liminal space. And we come out the other end and we know. I know it now, I understand it. Uh and I teach that particular model of learning to my pupils, because it's very simple. You know, it's got three bits, don't know, journey through liminal space, do know. Um, because I I I teach my pupils, you know, if I've taught you something or you've learned something, and there comes a point where you you you've kind of unlearned it, you've kind of forgotten it or ungotten it. I like that expression, I've ungotten it. Forgotten seems to suggest that I might remember. But ungotten is the is the total deal. I've ungotten it, it's gone. Uh, and instead of them saying, you know, I've forgotten that, or I I don't understand it, it's much easier for people to say, do you know, I think that's gone back into liminal space. And liminal space might mean, you know, the middle of liminal space where they they kind of understand it or they don't, or it's gone right back to the edge of liminal space, even back into the don't know bit. And and pupils, you know, at any any age, they get this kind of liminal space idea, and it's much easier for them to say to me, Oh, I think that's gone back into liminal space, rather than I've forgotten that or I don't understand it. Um bit because if you've taught something, or you think you've taught something, and a pupil hasn't got it, they're very unlikely to tell you that. It's for you as a good teacher to kind of work out that actually what you've taught has not been that well received. Um but if you if you have this kind of thing with a pupil where they they they understand this learning model, and and my pupils say often to me, Oh, you know, I think I must go back into liminal space with a smile, uh then we can kind of rework it through. So so liminal space to me uh is is a very important place in the learning process.
SPEAKER_02So in this model of where liminal space operates between not knowing and knowing, correct? Okay. So how does that then relate to things in in music and music education where we are able to do but not know or understand? So, for example, you were talking about dotted rhythms, or you know, uh if a uh a student can clap and join in that dotted rhythm, but not actually understand anything about it, where does that sort of fit in there?
SPEAKER_01Well, that's an interesting question, Chris. And uh try and make them interesting, Paul. I try, I try. I'm trying to get better. You're saying it. But go on. That is that's a that's a good question, and it's it's quite a a tricky question because it doesn't have uh a specific answer to it. Um because in life we we do lots of things, some of which we entirely understand, and then we're on a continuum to entirely understanding what we're doing, to being able to do something without understanding it at all. Uh and you know, I guess if if we went through a day uh and and someone was with us um and and uh each thing we did, they were putting us on that particular continuum. You did that thing there and you completely understood it. Oh, now you did that thing there, and you did it instinctively, and you probably have no understanding. Uh, like, I mean, there's loads of things that we do that that are part of nature, like breathing, for example. Uh, do we understand the process of breathing? Well, hardly. Um, a little bit maybe. Uh, there are there are loads of natural things we do. Um, the process of reading. I've just written a book on sight reading. Um it's not out yet, it won't be for a bit because I've just finished writing it. Uh, and and I've spent a lot of time with with um all sorts of scientists looking into the actual pre-process of breathing, the the brain-eye connection, um, and which is something new to me, you know, and I've been reading for a number of years now, um, but I haven't really understood that process, but I've been reading quite successfully. But having now studied this process with these interesting people, uh I know more about it, I understand more about it, and I can teach the process of reading and site reading a lot better, I think, because I've understood it. But it hasn't stopped me from doing the thing. So I I think in a way, as we do things, as we teach things, as people do things, we we need to get to a place in our own minds where we think, yeah, I can do that, uh, but that thing I'd particularly like to learn a bit more now. I I'd like to learn how I'm doing that, because I really don't understand it. Um, and you know, going back to dotted rhythms, uh, of course, it's quite easy for us to to clap a phrase that's got a dotted rhythm in it, and our pupil will clap it back with the the kind of the appropriate length of notes that that add up to a dotted rhythm, but they will neither know that it's labelled a dotted rhythm, or indeed it is a dotted rhythm, they will still be able to do it. Um at some point we may feel it's important that this person understands this in more detail, uh, and therefore we will go to uh hopefully as best as we can to teach them a dotted rhythm, whatever it may be, from as many angles as possible so that they do understand it, so they can apply that knowledge in a different context on their own. And that that is the crux of the matter, and because they don't get it and they have to do it in in a different situation, a different context, and they don't understand it, they won't be able to do it.
SPEAKER_00Hi, I'm Rachel from Faber Music, the leading independent British publisher of music education books and proud sponsor of the Music Education Podcast. Here at Faber Music, we task ourselves with understanding what music educators and students really need. And by working with some of the best educators, composers, and authors out there, produce publications and resources that enrich the music education journey for all. I invite you to browse our world-renowned publications at FaberMusic.com. Discover new ideas to improve your teaching with Paul Harris, learn piano from the world's most famous pianist Lang Lang. Begin your journey to become a rock star with our best-selling tutor Guitar Basics. All this and more with 20% off exclusively for music education podcast listeners. Visit Fabermusic.com forward slash education today and enter code podcast1 at the checkout.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. I I feel that might be a beautiful and natural segue into your um simultaneous ideas in that sort of applying knowledge, because I was I'm interested by that and how that works and perhaps works nicely for students to be able to apply knowledge. Could you maybe tell us a little bit about what that is?
SPEAKER_01Do you mean the simultaneous learning approach? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh okay, well, yes, thank you very much indeed. I'd love to mention this briefly. Um when I started, I mean I I was very lucky, I think. I I had some very good teachers as as a lad. Um and when I started teaching, uh uh from very early age, I was interested in the teaching process. Um and I and I started teaching, and I got interested in the process, the process that I was using myself and watching other people. Uh and over not actually that great a period of time, I I I was I started to put together, as it were, this approach, um, which to me seemed to work really rather well. Uh and and over a few years it became what I what I call the simultaneous learning approach. And basically, it's an approach to teaching that that is based on three fairly simple principles. Uh and that those simple principles are these. One is that as we teach something new, a new piece, a new song, whatever it happens to be, we identify the ingredients of that new thing that we're going to teach. We identify the ingredients and we teach that thing, that piece, that song, whatever it is, through those ingredients, the ingredients that make up whatever it is we're teaching. As we are doing that, we make connections with other similar things within our world. Uh, and you may know I've done I developed this thing which I call the simultaneous learning musical map of the world, which is a whole load of bubbles with all the various different aspects of music in those bubbles. And they make up our world, the world of a musician. Uh, and they're all connected ultimately. If when you think about it, you realize how all these things are connected. Uh, and the more connections we make in our minds, the better we know something. You know, if we if there are a lot of connections made, we know that thing in a deep and very understandable kind of way. So as we're teaching that thing, we then make a connection with another aspect. We see it in a way from another angle. That's the second principle. And the third principle is that we teach proactively, which is that as a lesson unfolds, we give a pupil or a set of pupils, a group of pupils, an activity to do, which we think is the right activity based on what we know they can do. We then we do we still react, of course, we react to what they have just then done in response, and then set up the next activity. Um, so you know, a a lesson doesn't begin, for example, uh an instrumental or a singing lesson, doesn't begin necessarily with, you know, play me something, sing me something, and then I'll react to your mistakes, I'll tell you what you've gone wrong and put them right. We set up that first activity, and then continually we set up the next activity as a response to how our pupil or how our pupils responded themselves to our last activity, and that I call proactive teaching rather than reactive teaching, essentially proactive rather than essentially reactive. And with those three things working together, our pupils progress and they always progress, they are always progressing. And you know, sometimes when I'm doing my teaching, I'm giving some of my secrets away here, but sometimes when I'm doing my my teaching talks, I ask teachers, you know, what is the difference between a beginner and a more advanced pupil? And the difference simply is that a beginner comes to us with a small bag of ingredients, maybe no ingredients at all in their mind, in their bag, and we gradually fill their bag up with ingredients. So the more advanced pupil simply has a bigger bag of ingredients. And as we teach, uh and as a pupil assimilates each ingredient, if they understand it, that bag gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, uh, and there is nothing stopping any pupil from going to beginner to advanced at their rate, at their rate, not at our rate, at their rate, uh, and making progress, and making as much progress as they may wish to do.
SPEAKER_02Cool. That's very interesting. I feel um there is some resonance to uh empty vessels and other such ideas in in that, but which we maybe we should talk about. But I want to look at the proactive bit, because that seems really interesting, especially for like the peri teaching uh situation, um, and that sort of quite intense. Your your student plays something to you and you can hear this series of mistakes of these you know commonly made, basically frustrating things that they're doing, and every inch of your body wants to stop every bar and go, no, don't do it like that. Is this the solution there then in the proactive idea is to not do that but to offer like a new exercise that will correct that thing. Is that the idea, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
SPEAKER_01No, no, you you've got the right idea, Chris, but but you see, I why would a pupil make mistakes?
SPEAKER_02Because you've given them a specific task of something to do and they're not doing that.
SPEAKER_01Why would you have given them that task?
SPEAKER_02Well, yeah, for a gazillion reasons. Maybe they want to learn a song, for example, I suppose is the simplest one.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Uh I mean it's interesting, isn't it? I I I think uh it this is an interesting, it's a difficult problem, I understand. But I I think let let's take I an ideal situation. An ideal situation is that uh you will always give your pupil an activity that you believe they can do. You know, if if if teaching was uh was I in always in an ideal place, and we we have to aspire to looking to to being ideal, we have we have to aspire to that. It it doesn't happen, I agree, in real life. Although it nearly does, if we really work hard at this. We've got to work hard at it, and we've got to talk to our pupils a lot, and we've got to say, I'm your teacher, and by the way, I'm a good teacher. You know, you're lucky to have me, I know what I'm doing, and if you come with me on this journey, we will get to where you want to be. It may take a little while longer, and you have to exhibit this wonderful quality that some people have, and all people can have if they work at it, a little patience. Uh so We are going to get there. So you come with me on this journey, and we are going to get there. And you know, you you sometimes have to talk to pupils and just remind them that we're on a journey, and if we go on this journey and we we take the right routes, we will get there. And in my ideal world, my aspirational world of teaching and learning, my pupils are not going to make mistakes, or they're going to make very few mistakes, um, because they know what they're doing. They know what they're doing. Uh and if my pupil brings me a piece that that is, you know, let me give you another scenario. Um let let's say uh, you know, we have a grade one pupil, maybe a grade one adult, uh, and they say violin. And they say, I want to learn the Tchaikosky Violin Concerto. Uh, and then they bring it along and they start playing it, and they start making mistakes, of course, because it's a Tchaikovsky violin concerto and they're grade one. The point is that the Tchaikovsky violin concerto is not too difficult for them to play, it's the wrong piece for them to be playing. Um, you know, they are not ready yet to play the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. It is full of ingredients that they do not know how to manage. Okay, and so we just say this to them. This is just not the right thing. This is the right thing for you to do. Uh, and if you've got the patience, we can build up from grade one to the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. Uh, and you know, I maintain that anyone can, if they've got the patience and the desire, and they will learn each ingredient at the right time, in the right order, for the right reasons, we can get them to Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. That that is the point. So going back to the mistakes thing, Chris, um I like to feel that that in a teaching situation, pupils are not making mistakes. Making a mistake gives us a kind of emotional pain. It it it gives us a feeling of unhappiness. All of us, you know, none of us want to make mistakes in any aspect of our lives. And if we set up the next thing that we do carefully, why would we not be able to do it? If it's the wrong thing and we might not be able to do it, then we might make a mistake. Now, I'm not suggesting, by the way, that we don't always give our pupils challenges. Of course we can give them challenges, but the right challenge. The right challenge. So we are always pushing them forward, but we are pushing them forward appropriately, not inappropriately, because if we're giving them an inappropriate challenge and they can't do it, uh they will get upset. You know, some pupils might want that that extra challenge, which is fine. We identify that pupil and we might give them a because we know they've got that stickability, that now I'm gonna get there. That's fine for that pupil. Which is why we need to know our pupils. We need to know what kind of challenges we give. So, to get back to your original question, which is, you know, that this pupil is making lots of mistakes, and we just want to give a list of all the mistakes and how to put it right. I would like to suggest that that situation does not occur because of the quality of the teaching. And the quality of the teaching requires two things. It requires, number one, maybe the most important, understanding the pupil or the pupils, and number two, then giving them the right thing to do for the right reasons in the right order. They may make a slip. I have this idea in my mind, a a different difference between a mistake and a slip. Uh a mistake is getting something wrong because you don't understand how to get it right. You either don't understand the technical aspect or the theoretical aspect or the intellectual aspect, or you don't understand what it requires to get that thing right. A mistake. A slip is where you do understand all that, and it just didn't quite work. So I'm gonna have another go, and I think I know how I can put it right. A slip. And a slip is fine. You can make as many slips as you like, um, because you're in control, you know what you're trying to do, you just need to have another go, and you do it slightly differently, or you slightly alter this thing, and you have another go. That's fine. Many slips as you like. Mistakes, no, because that indicates you don't understand it. I haven't taught it appropriately, and that will lead to a kind of emotional unhappiness.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful. I mean that that's huge stuff, I think. I know I know in my uh teaching experience there is often a bit of a a battle with the idea of constant, even the idea of constant progression, for example, and challenge and constant progression, but my understanding of trying to work in a well flow state, for example, being the idea of being within your comfort zone to a degree but challenged to another degree, and that seems to be not unique to music, but it doesn't apply, you know, in a school setting. You know, that's not quite the same as a maths lesson, is it? Where you've you do have to be comfortable to a degree, don't you, to to be able to progress. I mean you you talked about uh mistakes making you feel sad, which is you know just so true. I I um I I think there's a lot of value maybe to look again at that understanding of what you're saying is acceptable to be getting wrong, um as you said, like slips for example. Um is it so if students are uh not getting to that note in time or they're missing the note even though they know the one they're meant to do, but they're repeatedly getting that. You still you see that as a as a slip and that's okay, we're still within the sort of comfort zone.
SPEAKER_01I I think it's very much for the teacher to kind of work out um i if if a people is getting something wrong, why? That's the question the teacher has to ask continually. Why why are you why are you not understanding that? Why are you getting that thing wrong? And and if they're continually getting something wrong, it's essential for the teacher to to think that through. What why is this not working? And and this is one of the fun things about being a good teacher, um, is we are always trying to work out why people can't do something, uh, and then hopefully giving them the solution or or working towards the solution. That's that's the great thing. And and we do this um collaboratively, and we do it with our pupil, with our pupils, together. We are working out, we are we are accepting that this is not quite working. Do you see that? Yes, I do. Okay, now we're gonna have to try to work out why. Let's work out why. And that's one of the fascinations of of being a teacher. Um, and so that that we we work out is it a technical thing, is it a theoretical thing, is it an oral thing, is it where where is the misunderstanding here that that is stopping you from getting this next event correct? Uh, and once we've worked it out, then uh and the pupil understands it, then why will they make that error again? They should get it, and we get them to explain it to other members of a group, for example, or back to us, because they will then explain it to us using their language and their understanding. Uh, you know, we we have a uh a form of language that we we create over how many years that we are alive, and we understand concepts, we use particular series of words to explain our concept for all sorts of reasons. Um, and our pupils have a different background, uh different vocabulary, different constructions of words. We want to hear them say what we've just said to them in their way. That that helps us to understand them more. Uh, and and then together, collaboratively, we move forward.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful.
SPEAKER_01There's another point, actually, Chris. I may just pick up two words that you mentioned. Go for it in your in in in your last little chat. Two two words which I love, flow and progress. Um, state of flow, you you mentioned. Uh, and um uh a state of flow to me is is the thing that we are looking for in life always. Uh I mean you you may know, uh and your listeners may know that I was quite ill a couple of years ago. Um I had non-Hodgkin lymphoma, which was quite a gruff form of cancer. Uh, and they gave me a 50% chance of survival, and which I've survived, and I'm completely healthy now, which is wonderful. Um and and continually in that time, I was looking for a state of flow. It was in my mind all the time. Uh, one had to flow through this, you know, seven months it was I had of of chemotherapy, and I had to find a way to flow through this to make it kind of acceptable. And I love this idea of flow. And from from a uh a more um pedagogic sort of angle, I don't know whether you, I'm sure you do, no, know the great Hungarian psychologist Mihai Chiksent Mihai, um, who is the man who wrote about flow. He he's written, he he he's done a TED talk, which is not that good actually, but he's done a wonderful book on it. Um and and and flow, which he kind of uh describes as effortless engagement. Effortless engagement. If you're engaged in something in a kind of effortless way, you're in a state of flow. And that is a wonderful place to be. It's a totally wonderful place to be, because it's effortless, you know, and that that is basically what I'm talking about, really. Uh the the kind of the teaching thing. If a lesson feels effortless, I mean it's not, it takes an enormous amount of effort, but if it feels effortless, because we are getting it so right, uh and and absolutely connecting with the pupil who gets it, and that we are moving together in this flow, wonderful. And and if that's happening, then we go into this state of progress. And progress is an interesting thing. You know, what what does what is progress? We could again we could spend a whole 40 minutes on progress, um, but just in an in a nutshell, um progress is just moving from one thing to the next, maybe microscopically, nanoscopically, you know, it's a tiny uh nano progress. Um, but but we can make progress all the time. And in the simultaneous learning approach, each next activity event has built on the last one, and therefore we have made a bit of progress. It might be of microscopic size, but we've made it. That's why I say, you know, we go at the speed of our pupil. Every pupil goes at a different, every human being works at a different speed, uh, and much, much, much more disparate than than we might think. And again, when I was being ill, actually, it which gave me loads of time to think. One of the many, and I wrote a book about it actually, it's called Cancer and Positivity, where I wrote a lot of stuff like this because I was thinking about it. Um one of the thoughts I had was the fact that that although we all exist together, all our universes are like kind of parallel universes. Um, and that that we are more, we are very similar to each other, but we're also very different to each other. Uh, and and everything we do moves at a slightly different pace, which is all fascinating. And if we can work this out with our pupils, we find their pace, and and then we begin to kind of get into their style of progress. They're making progress all the time. Uh, and if we acknowledge that progress, they are happy, we are happy, they are happy, and they become motivated, they become truly motivated because I mean progress again, we don't have to say it, we do sometimes, but they kind of begin to get the idea.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that works hopefully, doesn't it? In um like uh instrumental one-on-one or small group sessions or whatever. But as far as classroom teaching um and you know, curriculums and reaching certain certain goals by certain times and by a certain age, you know, all these children at this age will exactly achieve this knowledge by this point, it's that just falls apart, doesn't it? Not that it's not true, but it's it becomes unachievable, right?
SPEAKER_01Well, now that you bring that up, Chris, I mean you you've opened up the uh the proverbial can of worms there. Um, because you know, I I don't want to get onto this area today because it's it's too big and it's it's quite controversial. But if you start thinking, if you start thinking logically about our education system, you begin to realize how unfit for purpose it is, really. Because, you know, simple questions, why, why, why would you put a group of children in the same room for learning purposes just because they're the same age? Um, you know, that their their learning abilities, their brain processing speeds are so different at a particular age. To put them all in the same room and teach them all together is is absurd if you want to think of it from a logical point of view. To do it another way, um, it would be enormously expensive uh and complicated, which is why we don't. Uh, you know, most things in life um we we kind of end up doing it in a particular kind of way because you know it's kind of easiest to do and it's not too expensive, and for all the wrong reasons, but those are the reasons that we have to uh uh subscribe to because that's how life works, unfortunately. And the problem with that is that many people are disadvantaged by the system. However, however, in in the music teaching world, um, particularly in individual teaching, we have an ideal situation. It is ideal because we can then work precisely at the learning speed, the brain processing speed of that particular pupil. It's wonderful. Doesn't happen that often, uh uh, but it does happen, and I I hope that that kind of individual teaching is something that that we always have place for. Because in a way, it's the best teaching that there is.
SPEAKER_02Um I mean that's cool to hear because I reckon a lot of you know guitar teachers or whatever listening to this are probably going, oh yeah, yeah, it is actually, isn't it? Because you know, if you do it day in and day out, you you don't necessarily see that positive side of it. But it's pretty idyllic, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01It it is idyllic, and and and it's it's more than idyllic, it's it's correct, it's right. No, you know, I wouldn't like to use any other word for it, it's the right kind of teaching, it's the most effective kind of teaching.
SPEAKER_02What about the sort of small group, you know, three three or four kids, 20 minutes coming in for a lesson?
SPEAKER_01Okay. Well, the the the a as as you um increase the number of pupils in a group, it it it it it increases the complications of effective teaching. And you know, we we've been through group teaching and books have been written about it, and we've done it, and it has quite a history now, and it was all very popular at one time. Looking at group teaching from a more objective angle, I I think I, you know, your listeners will immediately see that that the more people you have in that group, the more complicated it becomes because uh because everyone in your group, however well you try to match them, nonetheless, everyone in your group will process different things at different speeds. And you know, that in itself gets even more complicated in itself because each thing that we pro process, we process differently. Uh so in a in a guitar lesson, um, there are all sorts of things to process technical things, musical things, you know, many different technical things within that particular area. Uh artistic things, I think I said, maybe language things, all these things we have to process, and and individuals will process each thing within each of those areas at a different speed. It's just unbelievably complicated, but let's not worry about that. We don't we don't need to worry about that too much, otherwise we you know, our brain will blow up. Um but but the the the fact is that that we do have in a larger group to have our antennae, our our kind of you know thinking moving at a very, very high rate, and we need to be noticing how each pupil is responding to each activity that we give them. Um because they will all move at a slightly different pace, and we have to manage that in the group teaching situation if it's going to be successful. You know, again, I could talk about group teaching for for a long while. I I did I did a course in Denmark actually on group teaching uh over a period of about six months. Um I mean not continually for six months, but uh I went back every cell phone and we we kind of did a bit more. But it was very interesting and we we really kind of got to the heart of it. But um it's fascinating. I mean, all these things that you're asking for talking about are fascinating, and and I think if we think about them, try to work them out in our own mind, have an enormous amount of um awareness uh as a teacher of what's going on around us, how our pupils are reacting, then I think we can begin to manage it.
SPEAKER_02That's interesting. Uh uh you're talking about awareness, um and you sort of mentioned that several times through, I think, in in the the teacher has to be aware. Do you think there's uh value in trying to access, if you like, a flow state as a as a teacher, rather than just as the students in the class, that that that's actually an important part of teaching is a sort of a you know a musical experience in itself that you are completely focused and and in that task as well.
SPEAKER_01Completely. Absolutely, yes. Um the answer to that question is yes. Um we we we we we we as a teacher uh want to get into a flow. A flow. This concept of flow is is a is a lovely and beautiful thing, I think. Um because if you're in the if you are in the flow, everything just moves forward at an appropriate pace, ideas come at an appropriate place pace, uh, and and and we're just there. That's why you know that the Chick Sent Mehai concept of flow as being effortless engagement, it's just there. And you know, we are absolutely focused, and that's that that's a wonderful place to be. And you know, that the the the space that that is where a lesson is taking place um becomes uh in the words of one of my friends, a sacred space. It's a it's a sacred and special space, and you know, it it's wonderful, it it's it's a wonderful thing. There's so many wonderful things about teaching. I've always said that teachers are the most it is the most important occupation in the world, and we do one of the most exciting, interesting things that can be done in the world. And you know, so so in in that space that that where we are teaching, there there is the teacher, there is the pupil or the pupils, there is the space, that the literal physical space. Uh, and uh there is an energy in that space, um, and we are all part of that energy, and it and if that flow is taking place, it's it's just wonderful. It's wonderful. That that that that place, that energy then exists uh in a in a way that we we can really kind of almost feel it. Um and and things are going well. And and it's a it's a positive place. We are always in a positive place. It's wonderful.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. I mean, Paul, that that's just really great to hear to hear you describe it as a sacred space. I mean, lots of these conversations that I have for the podcast in particular come away just kind of in awe of the responsibility that well all educators have, obviously, because they're working with young people and the implications and the effects that you know one sentence can can have on a on a young person is profound, but seemingly particularly in music, you know, because we've seen so many adults who are terrified of singing or whatever, but you know, and to to hear it called a sacred space, I mean I think any music educator listening to that would go away going, yeah, okay, this is this is serious stuff, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01You know it's it's very serious. I mean, uh our responsibility is is immense in one sense. Um you know what what what are we responsible for uh as teachers uh you know as a complete entity, the whole the whole body of teachers. We are responsibility, we are responsible for the future. The future of the world, quite literally. The future, the the future of the world, Chris. Absolutely, the future of the world. It's in our hands. Um and and we want to try, we want to try to make the next group of people who are doing the same thing or different things uh better. You know, that that's that would be our aspiration to do it to understand it and do it better. History, unfortunately, doesn't tell us that, does it? Um we we we we we don't seem to have of have got it better for some reason. Um however hard we try, we don't we don't seem to have got it better. Well what about musically though?
SPEAKER_02Do you think that in in a in a music education sense, do you think that is better?
SPEAKER_01I I think I think music education has improved a lot. There is uh a lot of very good music education going on. I still find, I'm afraid, to say, uh as I travel the world, and I'm very, very lucky that uh, you know, I I I have had the privilege of of going to many places in the world to talk about music education, uh, that there are many areas that still do it in a kind of way that I feel very uncomfortable about. Um, and you know, music is for all, and being able to play music to others or with others is a wonderful thing, um, because hopefully there is harmony in that exercise. Uh, you know, we're not fighting someone, we are working with them. But I still find it it's not always as as I would wish it to be. Um, and and we haven't in a way yet got it right universally. But but I think it has improved a lot uh in in many areas.
SPEAKER_02What are those things that you don't, you know, that you don't feel comfortable with, I think is how you described it.
SPEAKER_01Well, the things I don't feel comfortable with is is is is mostly the way that teachers react, let's say, to to their pupils. Um uh and and you know, I I one of my recent books is called Teaching Unconditionally. Um, and it's an interesting study, really, of what are our conditions as a teacher. And when you start thinking about it, you realize we have many conditions. You know, well, you know, I'll teach as long as if this is the case and all that kind of stuff. Um, and those conditions often block the flow, they block this lovely sense of flow that that obviously you we both like, and you've said it a number of times, Chris. I know I know you really like this idea. Conditions conditions can block the flow. Uh, and what we want to try to do is to manage those conditions so that our behaviour is always at its best in order to get the best out of our pupils. Um, and and sometimes I see the behaviour of a teacher either getting a bit irritated or explaining something in a less than kind way, or a way that a pupil probably won't um understand, but the teacher is a bit frustrated, so they can't really be bothered to think of another way. Or, you know, I'm giving you worst-case scenarios. Um, but but I you know, I see this, I'm afraid, and I I don't see the point of that. I I want someone to try to explain to me why that can be a good thing, and and I think they would struggle, to be honest. Uh and I I don't want to see that. I I want to see teachers trying to to be positive and productive and and kind um in the way that they they teach, and so that their pupils then will do the same. You know, that the the kind of pupil who has been bullied into getting something right and has stuck with it because for whatever reason, themselves will probably be a bully when they become a teacher if they do any teaching, and and and it promulgates this this this rather negative aspect of what we do and and and it ripples into other aspects of life as well. And and I would like to see, if possible, um life being a better place for us all. You know, why shouldn't it be? I I don't get the psychology, that the the negative kind of psychology that that it can't be that. Maybe I'm too much of an idealist. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02No, I th I think this is um a very very rarely discussed. Um in fact, working on an article and an episode with a psychotherapist of this uh reflection, tea teachers' self-reflection of their own, to use your word, behavior. Um, and it seems well it's it's actually in my experience of teacher trait of my the wife did a PGT, I didn't do a PGT, but was very much interested in it. She went through it and other bits of educational training that I've done. I've never heard mentioned or had mentioned to me. You know, maybe you should reflect on how you manage your response to people, your your a feeling of anger, for example, if you're feeling frustrated at Jimmy, who's just made the 120th mistake because you gave him a piece that was too hard, you know. But it's that's so crazy, isn't it? That that's that no one mentions maybe you should work on responding better to people and managing your own emotions and feelings.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely, Chris. I mean I've written a book about it called The Virtuoso Teacher. Um, and a lot of the Virtuoso Teacher talks about our response, you know, how we behave. And of course, you know, you've got it exactly a hole in one. What you've just said sums it up. We have to manage our behavior. We have to manage our behaviour. You know, what why would we get frustrated at someone who gets something wrong? I I would like to say to and I do, I say to teachers a lot, particularly in my virtuoso teacher talk, you know, i if a pupil makes a mistake a mistake, I'm using that word, as opposed to slip. If a pupil makes a mistake, whose responsibility? Who's res whose fault is it? It's our fault. It's our fault they made that mistake. We shouldn't have got them to do that thing, because they weren't ready to do it. It's our fault. Let's take responsibility. That's not a bad thing. That that is showing strength. Let's take responsibility and and and give them something more appropriate to do at that moment. And and you know, is that a hard thing to do? No. It's easy if we understand it and we're prepared to do it. Um, then we can move forward and we can always move forward, and everyone can move forward in a positive way. And wouldn't that make the world a better place?
SPEAKER_02What what other kind of practices or things to do do you recommend as a as an educator to linking to your virtuoso teacher um book, you know, to to develop that ability to respond better, to manage or regulate, I suppose?
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, I think I think yes, I think we are always doing that. It's well, I mean, that there there are a lot of aspects to being a virtuoso teacher, I think. Um, but but the absolute crux of it is the next thing that we say to that pupil. You know, that that's the crux of it, really. And if the next thing that we say in a lesson, uh, or in life to anyone really, uh, is if that next thing is the right thing to say at that moment and and delivers the the the appropriate or or the best kind of response, then then we've moved that moment forward in the lesson or or in in life. And and things are good. Things are good. We we haven't kind of put a spoke in the wheel, we have we haven't interrupted the flow. And I think that's the crux where there's lots of other things that that we can do, um, you know, from practical things like you know, make sure the room is as tidy as it can possibly be, because if you have chaos around you, it it affects the mind. Uh, there are lots of practical things like that we can do to the way that we talk about practice, for example, for a pupil, you know, rather than scribble a few notes in a book at the end that they can't read and won't read. Do you scale? Exactly. We just talk about it during the lesson. When you practice that, how might you do it? You know, so so we are introducing the thought into their mind rather than telling them to do something. You know, the whole that's another maybe another talk we can we can do, the whole point, the whole kind of thing of telling pupils things. I'm not suggesting that that you shouldn't tell pupils things, of course you should. Um but as as someone once said, telling is not teaching. Um and you know that that that that comment first occurred in a in an American book way back in about 1912. Um and but but it's something that again, it's something we want to think about. You know, how how do we actually give that information to our pupil? Because we do have to tell them things, but all all these things when we start when we start thinking about it, uh if we have that patience or that interest, if we start thinking about what we're doing, inevitably we will start doing it better.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant. Paul, it's been a joy to to talk to you and go to go to the sacred space. Thank you so much for your time.
SPEAKER_01It's been a pleasure. I hope we can do it again.
SPEAKER_02So there you go. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Please don't forget to follow or subscribe to this podcast wherever it is that you listen to your podcast. And a huge thank you to the Soundstorm Music Education Hub and our sponsors, Faber Music, for making this possible.