The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 57 - ‘The Journey Home - Home Education Pt1' Lucie Hill
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This episode has an accompanying article in Music Teacher Magazine, our media partner. Head to https://www.musicteachermagazine.co.uk to read it. Thank you to our Sponsor Faber Music. Visit https://www.fabermusic.com/education and use Podcast1 at the check out for money off. This podcast is brought to you by Soundstorm.
Welcome to the Music Education Podcast. I'm Chris of the Chris Woods Groove Orchestra, and this podcast is brought to you by the Soundstorm Music Education Hub and our sponsor, FabreMusic. Now, as a listener of our podcast, you are welcome to 20% of Favour Music titles. Simply head to Fabermusic.com forward slash education and use the code podcast1 in the checkout. This episode has an accompanying article in Music Teacher Magazine, which you can read by heading to musicteacher magazine.co.uk. Now the subject of this article and this episode is home education. Now a recent report in The Independent revealed a 40% increase in students being home educated since 2018. So home educating is obviously something that is growing exponentially, but quite often it's absent from music education conversations that tend to focus on schooling situations, state schools, private schools, universities. I think there's so much to be learned from understanding why parents choose to home educate and also what happens. Ultimately, what can we actually learn from home educating families, from the parents, from the practitioners? Now I spoke to three wonderful guests for this episode and article, and for that reason I've split it up into two parts. So in this first episode, I speak to music educator and home educating parent Lucy Hill. Now in part two I speak to home educating parent Nerys Williams and the previously home educated and now music educator Will Savage. Now part two will be coming up really soon, but in the meantime, I hope you enjoy reading the article or listening to this episode. Lucy, thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. Can we start off with who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, sure. Thanks for having me, Chris. So I'm I'm Lucy Hill, and I'm a home educating parent of two young children. I have two boys aged six and eight. They're both home educated, and last year I set up a home education setting which would include creative subjects such as music, arts and crafts, and dance. And that setting evolved into Nest, which is now a twice-weekly setting for creative and nature-based activities for home educated families for ages six to twelve years.
SPEAKER_02Wonderful, fantastic. And how does music play a role in that sort of nest setting or nesting?
SPEAKER_01Nesting, yes. So we like to bring instruments to each session. So I've always got um an array of instruments in my basket. So we have drums and uh percussive instruments. I also bring along a keyboard and a guitar, and the way we approach music uh is it's something that in the last year I've become more interested in is the therapeutic effect of songwriting and singing together and playing music. Um, so we will use music as a way of connecting with each other and writing a song about something we all agree on, a theme, and then we'll explore songwriting through how we're moving through that day, or something that's uh a theme in our setting, um, and then we'll use that as a basis to create music together. And sometimes it results in a song, and sometimes it doesn't, and there's no pressure for anyone to read music, it's purely a way of um young people being able to express themselves freely and without being uh tested. There's no testing and there's no um judgment, it's it's purely a way of connecting with each other and themselves.
SPEAKER_02Okay. It sounds wonderful to ask you a uh slightly well, maybe slightly silly question, but oh we'll just give it a go. So with doing all these wonderful therapeutic things, how do we possibly know that those students are developing or learning new things?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think um through parent feedback, I've had some feedback recently where um you know a child might tell their parent that they've learnt some chords on the ukulele, and then that that parent will tell me that then their child has then you know asked to get ukulele for their birthday or something like that, and then you know that they've actually really enjoyed what they've listened to. With music, sometimes I will invite guest musicians in to actually teach certain subjects. So in the past, I've had had guitarists come in, show guitar, I've had the Cornell Music Trust come in and um show people brass instruments, and I've also had um uh a DJ come in and show some DJ skills, so it's not just um one facilitator, it's actually a very collaborative um effort, and I'm really trying hard to program Nest so that everyone has access to lots of different instruments because I don't play everything. Um I'm a songwriter, so I can play basic guitar and keyboard, um, anything other than that, then I'll hire people in. So I've hired bass musicians and guitarists, ukulele um brass uh musician, so it it's very much um a facilitator-led session, uh, and then if the child is interested in learning more on that instrument, then that's something that they could discuss with their parent uh or carer.
SPEAKER_02I mean this is just such a uh different conversation than I've had in well, most podcast episodes um where the majority I guess are focused on mainstream music education. And I've sort of thrown in the slightly I don't know, I d I guess loaded question of asking you about progression, and then you've then uh wonderfully spent the next few minutes talking about facilitating and bringing in cool stuff and everything, and then at the end, if they want to then carry on with that, then they can choose to pursue that, kind of maybe almost off their own energy, right? So which just seems so different to how a uh uh uh a mainstream music teacher might respond to that question because I guess everything is so based on well, you mentioned at the beginning there's no testing, so for example, you know, being aware of measuring and testing students. So if I was to ask how do you make sure they progress, then that's just inbuilt into the day every day, right?
SPEAKER_01And that's the thing, and I think that is the difference, is because with home educating families, it's very um the culture is that the child usually is so confident that it's consent-based learning. So if a child doesn't want to do something in the setting, then there's something that they would like to do. We have to be able to, it's like you'll have a lesson plan, a very loose lesson plan in home educating settings, and because it is child-led, if that isn't happening, you have to be able to, as a facilitator, take the lead of the child. Because if you have your own plan and it's not going to plan, and you still try and carry that out, as a main screen as a mainstream teacher. Um, I could see the challenge there because you're being assessed, and you know, you have um you know curriculum to follow, so then there would be that challenge. Whereas it with a home educating facilitator, because it is child-led the music sessions and the creative sessions. If the child isn't interested in doing that, then we have to be able to find them something that they do like, so it's really rewarding in that sense because you're really um trying to engage with them and where they're at, and every child is in a different place. So I think that's the challenge for facilitators is that we have to um it although it's a group, it can be very you know, you might have one child that's interested in the songwriting, and then another child might be wanting to draw, and and so that but that is still creative. And for example, my son he loves drawing, um, and sometimes he won't join in with the singing. However, I'll know that he has participated because maybe a week later he might remember what we've done, and so I know that it it might not appear that he's listening or taking it in, but actually a week later I know that he's still um mentioned that song, and then he'll be able to engage in that way. So he's maybe taken a while to process it, but I think even if a child doesn't participate directly in a in a subject, creative subject, then they're still in that environment, and they're I think the most important thing is that they're in an environment that is nurturing and it's non-judgmental and they aren't being assessed, and I think that's so much more important for young people for their well-being is that they don't feel anxious about making mistakes and they don't feel anxious about saying no to things, and you know, we like them saying no to things, we like the challenge, we like them making that decision to do something or not, and so some teachers would find that really hard. Uh whereas this style really suits me as a creative person, it would have been the school that I would have liked to have gone to where my views were um you know taken seriously and where my uh creativity wasn't stifled.
SPEAKER_02So if the student is able to choose their own route, because you use the phrase consent-based learning, right? So they're able to be offered something and say no or yeah, give it a go, or actually no, and I want to learn about uh I want to learn a Lewis Capaldi song or something. Yeah, and you and you would then facilitate that in whatever way you could, right? So doesn't that then or does that then mean that you as a as a musician and music educator feel that actually there's no essential building blocks of music education? Because surely then there are things that students will will miss out on, you know, if you feel that this thing is a really important lesson in music. And actually Jimmy says, I don't want to do that. You know, so then do you think that's okay? That's okay for them then to go.
SPEAKER_01I do think that's okay, definitely, and it's valid. Everything everyone, if they don't want to do that, there's a reason why. Um, and I think it's gonna be really difficult to have a group of home educating children who all want to do the same thing, and it's funny because they'll um I've had quite a few facilitators come in now and teach, and they're just amazed at the level of confidence in these young people. Um, and you know, they've got their chins up and they they get up and move if they want to, you know. They get up and making their own choices. It's very I know how dare they get up and move their bodies. So then, like, you know, we have a child that is really in their body and likes to move a lot, and and that's fine as well. It it's very um yeah, child-led, and we understand that you know, to self-regulate, some people need to move around as long as they're respecting boundaries, then you know, we can facilitate that as in other people's boundaries, personal body boundaries, then we can facilitate that movement. Um, however, if it's you know in a way that isn't, then that's something that we then you know discuss with the parent and um you know remind them about if it's a matter of keeping reminding them about how to be in a group, because that's something at mainstream, isn't it? We're taught how to conform and how to be quiet and and how to behave. So uh a lot of these young people don't have that conditioning, and so it's a real interesting perspective as a facilitator or musician. It it would be interesting for you to come in. I would like that if I invite you to come in and teach a session, Chris. Then see how you would find that. I would I would be interested to see how you find it.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'd I'd love to. Sounds like a wonderful space.
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SPEAKER_02Um okay, well on that, I'll sort of bringing myself into the conversation then. So I was speaking very, very honestly, and hopefully this isn't misinterpreted by anyone, but my experience of working with home educated students, as is my experience of working with students from different types of schools, be it prep schools or state schools, Steiner schools, or home educated, I notice a distinct difference within how those students interact uh with each other, with children and with adults. I find I think I find maybe with uh home educated children the interaction between students uh or other children, other young people and adults is more uh relaxed, maybe more I mean this is like awful generalizing, but you know, whatever. Let's have a you know an honest conversation and it's confident but not in a suggesting arrogance or but just yes, seem comfortable in themselves, maybe a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um what I've noticed as well is that um, you know, like the I mean I was mainstream schooled and I always felt that there was um a culture of authority and that I had to respect authority. Um and I never understood that as a child, and I still don't understand that either, um, how a child's view is any lesser than an adult's view.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I can hear like people shouting into their phones as they're listening to this, like like going, what what are you talking about? Because um, you know, adults know more, they have more knowledge, children are just have just appeared. What do you think? That's so What would you say to those people getting out?
SPEAKER_01No, like this is this is the thing. So I don't know, I can't speak for other adults, but I definitely feel like my children teach me so much about life, and I am guided by my children. Um, I'm not saying I'm the perfect parent, but I listen to their needs, and my eldest son's his needs were when he was at mainstream school I listened and and and he was getting really overwhelmed just going to school. He was he looked sad and he looked different to what he was very comfortable at home, and then I drop him to school and he looked sad and he looked anxious. And it for a mother or you know, parent carer, that's really um difficult to know that your child is not comfortable or they're anxious at school, so um but they'll they'll tell you in their own way how they're not comfortable, and through and it was through um my son feeling yeah, anxious. I could see visibly um that he was struggling, and then throughout the pandemic, um it was only through homeschooling in the home in the pandemic that I realized he wasn't going to thrive in the mainstream environment because he's very sensitive, um he is very quiet and introverted, he likes really small groups and he's very gentle, um and yeah, he he's sensitive to his environment. So if it's really loud at school and there's lots of groups, it it overwhelms him and he can get really drained. So um that's why I then created the the different setting, is because I I felt that there needed to be another way that so I like the rhythm of having a setting, so it's not a mainstream school, but it's still, you know, we turn up every Monday, every Friday, we're still there, and we're still doing lots of um crafts, we do arts and crafts, and we have um on Mondays we have a forest school leader who comes in, so we do a lot of um you know den building and it's play-based um learning. I've probably totally gone off piste here, Chris. I'm sorry, I do that quite a bit.
SPEAKER_02Great, keep keep going. Well, if in fact, maybe uh if I jump in on the the word play-based, so and bringing it to music specifically, that that word seems to resonate with how you were describing um students being able to choose what they're doing. So, is that very much that a music lesson is about play and exploration rather than you providing here is a piece of information, absorb it and do something with it.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Like, you know, how I think it was at Dave Grohl who was like, or or um Kurt Cobain, I think it was Dave Grohl who said, like, you know, they used to just pick up their instruments with Nirvana and just you know, jam out and and in the garage, and they didn't even know how to play their instruments, and that was the thing I really connected with that, and I I still like doing that today. If there's an instrument I don't know how to play, um, then I just love picking it up and just feeling it, and it might be that I'm playing it completely incorrectly, but it doesn't matter. I've got a connection with this instrument, and it's it's like therapeutic, it's responding to me, and often in this world we don't feel listened to, and so an instrument um is really um yeah, yeah, therapeutic. Yes, I I really love my piano. I'm just sat on my piano here, and if I've had a really stressful day or I'm trying to make sense of something, I can just play, and it doesn't matter, I'm not being judged, but I can just play how I am feeling, and it and it responds to me. And I've recently written a song uh that it's uh it's about my piano holding the space for me, and uh that's that's what I am really interested in, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so let's be sort of brutal and frank about it, and if we see that that's the uniqueness of um music education in a home education setting being play-based rather than uh formulaic learning, uh believing that there's certain things to be learnt. Right? That seems so w what what do you do there's anything sort of missing in comparison to state education in a music sense? I'm not talking about maths and science or whatever. Do you think there's do you think there's reasons it that be people are leaving state education because of because the state music ed is is not play-based and is about having to learn these things? Oh, is it that simple?
SPEAKER_01Yes, definitely. And I and I think like with the parents that I've spoken with and the community that we have here in Falmouth, it it the the schooling after reception goes to year one and it's very much classroom-led, and there isn't that opportunity to play as much when they um when the child reaches year one, and that's what I was finding with my elder son is that he was then not enjoying school because it wasn't as play-based, and he's still at the age where he still likes playing Lego, and um, you know, anything where you're using your hands and with an instrument that's really um therapeutic as well. So hands, uh, Lego construction toys are still really important for young people for their coordination, and so playing an instrument that's really good for coordination as well, isn't it? Um, and there just weren't those um toys available. So to every session I bring Lego um as a way like it's so beautiful to see a group of children just sat on a on a rug or on a cushion, they're not on chairs, not on those plastic awful chairs, they're on a nice rug and a blanket, and there's you know soft furnishings. It's it's more about the environment that we create for them. There's wood, um, you know, very neutral uh wood um around the wooden floor and and wooden walls and um you know nature around us, we're in a beautiful um organic farm, and it's stunning. The grounds are just inspiring, and we often make music outside, which is really important. So we bring in that feeling of like you know, music doesn't have to be something we do indoors, like it's something we can do outside together and sit on a rug and we can do some drumming together and talk about rhythm. And and one of the sessions I did recently was we learnt a sea shanty, the Wellaman song, and I really enjoyed it because each child got to lead, and and so when um a child gets to lead and they hear their um their tempo being sang back to them, you know, that's a feeling of empowerment that they're being listened to, so it's a a conversation and music, which is why I'm really enjoy facilitating, it's not how good they're singing it, it's like they're leading the tempo, and then the other children are following them, so the call and response, and that's you know, a really powerful thing, and so yeah, I'd say creativity in mainstream schooling isn't prioritized, and I think a lot of parents are creative, the parents of the children that I facilitate, their parents are very creative, and I think that's where a lot of the freelance creative types who've had children, they are most likely to bring their children to nest.
SPEAKER_02Is that also out of a logistical scenario where they might then, if they have to use uh a phrase that seems to have cropped up loads recently, the sort of portfolio careers of being able to go, you know, I can do a bit of work here and a bit of work on that day, and I can fit in home educating my children there. Is that part of the movement, the change, the the migration?
SPEAKER_01I th I think so, I think so. Um I I I also like Nest is only four hours long and I found the typical school mainstream school day too long for our children. Like they've just felt really wiped out afterwards. So after four hours, um that felt felt like the optimum amount of time to be in a setting, because I think six hours is such a long time for a child.
SPEAKER_02So so what what why do you think why is it why do you think if that's the case that um that mainstream schools remain keeping for sort of six, seven hours, why do you think that is?
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, so that for the workforce, isn't it? So it's for the parents who can actually then work in the traditional office hours. However, with freelance creatives, we can choose our own hours. So that's where we can work from home, and I think the Falmouth it's such a creative community that actually we do work from home and we do choose our hours, and that actually home educating fits in with our lifestyles.
SPEAKER_02That's kind of scary though, isn't it? I wonder if well, very rarely in my conversations with m music educators and people working in music ed in mainstream schools does it come up in the conversation that a lot of the the choices or the no or the accepted norms of schooling that we do are not there for the benefit of the child in any way, shape or form.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. And I think I would really struggle working in a school. I've worked in the schools as um like support staff, like in the teach as a teaching assistant. I've also worked as uh careers uh support workers like for age 13 to 19 year olds. So I've had a lot of experience working in schools, uh both in the UK and in New Zealand, and they are actually really similar in the fact that the class sizes are really big. Um, that's the one thing like average is what 30 children in one class. That is a massive amount of children in one classroom. And my concern it's loud, it's massive, it's so loud. And how can each one of their needs be met, you know, in and it's not I'm not blaming anyone and I'm not judging teachers because I feel like they have such a tough time and they're underpaid completely. I just feel that the the teaching profession, I've I just um I nearly went into teaching myself when I finished my degree. Um I was nearly uh went on to do my PGCE, but I worked in a school for two years as a teaching support staff, and that made me realise I didn't want to teach uh because of the class sizes, um, and that it was you know curriculum uh focused and the hours and and the bell and but but that's the reason that parents as well, right?
SPEAKER_02Do you think are not like going let's get out of school? It's just that those like longer school days that just aren't helping children bigger, bigger class sizes as well. Do you think is a sort of a major factor?
SPEAKER_01Or yeah, but what one thing I do want to say is that I think school can work for people. I'm not saying it's not okay for everyone, I think there are some children that maybe would thrive in mainstream schooling and people that like to be around lots of children. Um, but I feel that there needs to be a choice, so um I feel that there should be like a creative school for more creative learners, um, and then there should be maybe um you know more of a a play-based school for people that were more um you know likely to want to move around, and so I just feel like there need to be a bit of a transformation really of the school itself, the environment, the classrooms. I also like the mixed ages, so in our nest sessions, it's age six to twelve, which I based on the Montessori elementary age, and which is where it's more like a family. Um, so the older children look after the younger children and and they learn from each other, and for me that represents a more realistic perspective of the world when you leave school. Um, so you know that idea that we have friends that are the same age is ridiculous because I have friends who are a lot older than me and younger than me now, and it's um you know that kind of mixed age group that really I think yeah, makes that learning experience more um realistic to the world. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic. Uh Lucy, can I just end on one little question to get your real sort of opinion on? Um and that is you were talking about um music and teaching it from or or your mu no that not teaching it even, just your music sessions being based sort of around a therapeutic idea.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Do you think that that would be a positive thing? Uh and bearing in mind we've just talked about how uh you know some some young people will be better in their mainstream school or or or no no no, some uh children will be do well in their mainstream schools. Do you think aside from that, actually a more therapeutic approach to music education in state schools would be a positive thing anyway?
SPEAKER_01I think having that option, Chris, would be really important. Um I would like mainstream schools to have more funding to musicians in the community, okay, or therapeutic um music so music uh therapists and play therapists, um, so that there's more emphasis on the well-being of the child. Um, so I I know people that work in the Corn Music Trust who are music therapists, um, and you know, they have because they're a charity, they can afford to go into schools, but I'd like there to be funding within schools that that's actually uh there as an option for children that are maybe um struggling with being in a classroom with 30 children, and so then the music is a way of you know connecting them um to the wider world and to other people. It's a it's a language, it's a there's a conversation that you can have, it's um yeah, extremely therapeutic. And I think having studied songwriting therapy at Bristol Uni, the things that I learned from my tutor there it's so much more important that you play and you feel that you've you've expressed how you're feeling and there's no outcome. There's no it doesn't matter if there's no outcome, it doesn't matter if we haven't recorded a song, but it's the process itself, and that's what nest is it's like the process of being in a group and creating doesn't necessarily have to be something at the end, it's just let's hold space together, let's be in this space, let's respect each other, let's listen to each other. Um, and if you don't want to do this, we can find you something else to do.
SPEAKER_02Do you think outside of Nest, do you think that's just a home educating, obviously, but by its very being home educating is varied between individual families. But do you think that's a general sort of philosophy that's there of I guess process over product and there's no need to in in specifically talking about music here, obviously, because maybe that's different with learning how to count. Um, but do you think it's experience music rather than have to produce a performance at the end of the day?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it is, it's more about if the child is feeling content afterwards, you know. If a child isn't enjoying music, then they'll let you know. Content content, you know, if a child isn't enjoying music, they they're they're like a home educating child, you will know if they're not enjoying something, they will let you know. I'm generalizing here, but most in my setting, if if a child isn't happy doing something, they will let you know. So, um, and that's and that's encouraged as well. So, um, yeah, that that's great.
SPEAKER_02Brilliant, excellent, Lucy. That's perfect. Thank you so much for your time.
SPEAKER_01You're welcome, Chris.
SPEAKER_02So there you go. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Please don't forget to follow or subscribe to this podcast wherever it is that you listen to your podcast. And a huge thank you to the Soundstorm Music Education Hub and our sponsors, Faber Music, for making this possible.