The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 60 - 'Social Aspects of Learning' Stuart Marshall of Guitar Retreats
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In this episode Chris chats to Stuart Marshall of Guitar Retreats https://www.guitar-retreats.co.uk. Thank you to our Sponsor Faber Music. Visit https://www.fabermusic.com/education and use Podcast1 at the check out for money off. This podcast is brought to you by Soundstorm.
Welcome to the Music Education Podcast. I'm Chris of the Chris Woods Groove Orchestra, and this podcast is brought to you by the Soundstorm Music Education Hub and our sponsor, Faber Music. As a listener of our podcast, you're entitled to 20% of Faber Music titles. Simply head to Fabermusic.com forward slash education and use podcast one at the checkout. Now some of the most fascinating conversations I've had on this podcast have been with music educators who work with adults. And that's because I think there's just so much to be learned from an adult's experience with music and music education that is relevant to working with young people. And so for this episode, I invited Stuart Marshall of Guitar Retreats to come on and talk about the work that he does. Guitar Retre these amazing musical experiences for adults on the guitar and people of all different abilities, and the results are often really quite profound. And as a result, I think our conversation covers quite a lot of really profound stuff that is seriously relevant to all ages and just our viewpoint of music and community as a whole. We talk quite a lot about the social aspect of learning music and how that's relevant to all ages. And we delve quite deep into the idea of ranking ability in music education. We make obviously it very relevant, particularly to working with adults, but then reflecting on it in a way that it might apply in a school or other situations too. I hope you enjoy listening. Stuart, thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. Can we start off with a who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_01Hi, yes, well um I'm Stu Marshall and I run Guitar Retreats, which is a uh educational and social um events, a list series of events that we run uh for adults uh to come and play guitar, learn guitar from some great tutors and from each other. Um and it's very much a social setting. So although there is quite a bit of education involved, um we I'd say almost um make it more about the social aspect because that's what we find people if they're relaxed and in in a sort of very um comfortable place um with other people, they tend to well in my opinion that they they always learn better and um and that's what most uh uh of my uh customers w want and and actually r reflect that that's the best part of it. Um so yeah, um we go to some great locations, that's the other thing, is it is is is is magical or special places that uh you can be creative in and relax and um and and feel free really to sort of uh just uh do your own thing. Um and I've been doing that for 15 years now, this year. Um which was quite a surprise to me. Um I don't think I've when I started it I thought I'd be still doing it in 15 years, but uh I didn't know where it was gonna go. But it's become a massive community now. I have people coming back ye year after year, multiple times a year. Some people I've got been over 20 times now to to to events, uh and then different we you know, we now branched out running them in the different countries, Portugal, Spain, France. Um week-long events, which again was something I never imagined would would be possible or what people would want to do. So they they're kind of a mix of of tuition, education, socializing, and holiday all rolled into one. Um I think that gives you a picture.
SPEAKER_03I think that's great, man. That's uh I mean anyone listening to that is probably now thinking, yeah, I wouldn't mind popping along to one of those. I think it's an excellent summary of what they are. It I think you've missed out the fact that you are a musician. Um a fantabulous one, um, one of the the finest front men that I've ever witnessed. Um but yeah, I guitar retreats is the sort of stimulus for the conversation. Um and I think in your description of it, it's revealing perhaps a little bit of why I might want to invite someone who's dealing with well, essentially adult education onto a music ed podcast which has a large listenership of educators working with very young children, even. Um and the reason that I felt it so important that we had this chat was because of what happens on those retreats, really. Um so the way we know each other to disclose to everyone is that I come on as a guitar tutor. Um so that's how I thought that's is literally how we first met, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I think uh yeah, well it was a friend of a mutual friend of ours who who was teaching with me.
SPEAKER_03Tim Page, blues legend, blues legend.
SPEAKER_01Um and he brought you up uh but yes, we mentioned it to you, and you came along and and did a bit of teaching on that first one. And yeah, yeah. I think it was I think I I remember it was thinking you have an accomplished style, sir, you know, um very accomplished and and very um unique um guitar style. So you came along and you and and and you know you're amongst all these people with completely different levels from beginners to quite advanced players, all mixed together, and I think you I remember having a conversation with you and you said to me, How does this work? How how are you gonna how this gonna work? You know, how are you gonna pull this off? Um because I think perhaps and I might be wrong, but I think you perhaps at that moment had a different idea about how you you educated yourself to within music. Um you know how you how you learnt guitar, you know, you had a different route. Am I right or wrong?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, well that's um I think in probably incredibly sp spot on, but uh the reason I'm sort of reticent to go, oh yeah, totally, is because I hadn't actually thought about that, especially in the lead up to this, because actually that was a gazillion years ago, that was almost 15 years ago, it was right at the beginning of that journey.
SPEAKER_0113, 14 years ago, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I had long, luscious hair. Um yeah, I was I was I certainly wasn't a professional guitarist fully at that point, with uh not that I like that term professional because obviously I pride myself in being very unprofessional, but in guitar playing that is, um, but yeah, I think that's that is probably spot on, man. And I and I didn't really think about that. And I do actually remember asking you, and I'm not sure if this was from that exact situation or if it was the first retreat we did, but I do remember asking you for like info on the individual in the on the individuals, like how what how they're good they are, what they can play, and what they don't play. And I do remember being uh kind of slightly frustrated, I suppose, when uh you know your response was well, actually what I've learned basically is if I asked them this question, you know, the the the response isn't that helpful because people's perception of how good they are depends on you know who who are the other people that they've played played around or their confidence levels and and actually when it so yeah, I suppose whereas now my thinking is completely of all abilities together every time, even in a capacity where I'm trying to work with musicians in a professional way, i.e., I'm trying to record something, it's like the idea of having a quite an a novice musician next to a professional for me is totally fine, it's just about what they're playing. Um so yeah, yeah, that I will wow, that's interesting. I didn't expect that to unfold. Um but okay.
SPEAKER_01Well, it went down and you you you you kind of adopted that a little bit, I think, with the guitar revolution yeah, yeah, yeah, totally guitar orchestra.
SPEAKER_03Totally. Absolutely, yeah. Everything for for me, man, uh everything has that all abilities at the the heart now. And and when I go to other uh institutions, if you like, I'm now I'm now you, I suppose, going, yeah, no, they're all they're all different. Yeah, no, we don't need to ask them how good they are. And people are going, what? Are you mental? Like, we need to put them into categories. And what you over there and you stand over there and you're the so that's cool, man, that you basically led out that that yeah, that probably was from those from those guitar retreats. Um yeah, because I hadn't I wasn't even doing that much in schools or or what have you at that point. Um oh how how wonderful. What um I won't be too flabbergasted because otherwise I'll just sit back and reflect on that. But but I think I think that's really cool. And and uh leads me back to the idea of why perhaps it's so significant, these guitar retreats, because they are they're they're just they're profound experiences. And I'm a bit aware that I'm saying talking about retreats and profound experiences, like that you know, you've started a cult. Um, kinda have. Kind of have. Um nice cult. So it's a nice cult. It's a very safe cult, yeah.
SPEAKER_01You know, uh initiation ceremony you have to go through.
SPEAKER_03I think like that. You know, I haven't mentioned cults on this podcast before, so it's new ground, so we'll steer away from it quickly. Um but yeah, that they're they're profound experiences, and what what I found most significant and continue to find most significant is the experiences that uh the people who are going on them have in the way of again a mix of abilities, so you might have a person who is uh quite advanced on guitar and they might play quite a lot, um but they come away with this uh yeah, just being lifted up from, I suppose, having a whole weekend of creating with people and creating with people of all abilities. Again, that element of quite humbling of maybe playing with people who aren't so able, and then on the flip side of that, those who aren't so able feeling lifted because they've been around some really wonderful players. It just it just seems huge, it just always they always seem really huge. It feels it feels like many of the people on those retreats haven't had this musical experience before.
SPEAKER_01Is that is that kind of yeah, so I think there's a couple of things there, uh what you said. Um so the the the levels thing, so you know, you can have relative beginner. We don't I have run complete beginners courses before, but to be honest, that is a separate thing. If you know if you've never picked up the guitar before, uh you're gonna struggle, of course, you know, yeah just physically that sort of endurance element of and you know you you'd you'd need a a lot of time to spend on your own getting to a point where you can play, you know, three chords, three open chords and a strumming pattern, and you've kind of away, aren't you? Yeah we can we can work with that. Um but Nv4, everything up from that, you know, when when you when you've learned you've got some open chords going on and uh a bit of a bit of rhythm you and y you can build on that and so the levels thing, and and we do have that, we have people coming at that level, quite a lot of people, but we also have people who've been playing for forty, fifty years, you know, and have uh you know, mastered certain things like blues or you know have a great a fantastic theoretical knowledge, okay? However, they may not have a great sense of rhythm because they may have spent a lot of time just on their own in the room playing without uh playing with other people, which tends to bring you in time, force you in time, you know, is obvious thing, you know, if you've got a drummer. So the that person who who may be very or quite advanced in in many different aspects of playing guitar, there'll be an aspect where they're not so advanced, you know. And also they get to um i i influence and inspire, as you said, those others who were uh lower down the sort of uh skill level ladder. And that's that gives them enormous amount of satisfaction in itself, you know. Oh, I've got all this, I've done this, I can show you how to do this, and don't do this because I did that. I spent years playing like that and it waste of time. Try this, and and so on and so forth, you know, and the the person who's um can only play the three chords and and and the one strumming pattern may be a great singer and may have great timing. So you put those two together, bingo, you've got a fantastic little duo going on there. You know, someone's so the guy's able to solo over the top of the the other person, and the other the other uh girl is is able to sing beautifully, and honestly, you you've got something magic, you know, from from completely different abilities and and you know, years of of knowledge and practice you have that. And um one inspires the other.
SPEAKER_03And it's it seems that that magic if that happens on guitar retreats is always that playing together actively, even though there's quite a lot of teaching and here's some knowledge, here's some new ideas, it's that actual active those guys making music together or playing music, not necessarily even composing stuff, right?
SPEAKER_01Not not necessarily composing stuff, although, as you know, that goes on as well. Um again to people's great surprise. Sometimes, you know, oh I've never couldn't write I don't know nowhere to start. I haven't got no chance I could do that. You see the look on their faces when uh you go, right guys, we're uh gonna take half an hour and you're gonna go and compose a little thing. What? Oh my god, the fright, for fear, you know. Um working with with each other, it again is you you know, you you start to see people you know open up and relax and go, oh well, it's not just me then. I can I can rely on these other guys to help me.
SPEAKER_03And they come up to me. So do you do you think that because these adults then these adults um these guy guys and girls um who are on the course courses have these wonderful experiences and and come away learning to compose like Eureka moments basically seems to be coming from the playing together with other musicians? Obviously, there's other elements in there, there's the teaching, there's the setting, etc. Having the time and space to do that. But does that lead to you being of the opinion that actually that's kind of what is missing in society, in in music uh education early on, or whatever, this actual just playing together informally, just making music simple.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, as I said before, uh the uh mm most uh most people who who review, you know, give me reviews and uh talk about uh their experiences from guitar retreat, it's it's I would say it's skewed sort of probably 70, 80% it's the social side, it's joining up with other people, is playing and singing with other people, it's having the opportunity and the space and the time to kick back and do what you love doing with other people.
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SPEAKER_01You know, I I I I don't want to denigrate um the teaching that goes on because it it you know we we have some great teachers like yourself, sir. Um and who put you know, pass on some invaluable information and and do it in a way which is fun and um and lasting, hopefully. You know, it's not just a sort of, oh, this is a really clever thing, you know, try this. Oh, and it's it you know, you're never gonna use it again. The idea with all the all the all the tuition is that these are these are skills that will you can carry forward and take on into your playing for forever, you know, they will be there forever and uh and uh influence and help you and but and so I'm not to denigrate the teaching fact, which uh it wouldn't be the same without that. Because there's a coherence that comes in when you sit down all together around a table and you're listening to a teacher and you're following that and um working together as a class, as one, as it were, to to to to to um perform that idea and technique or whatever it might be. And that's like a group bonding thing, which is great. And people that have learnt a lot, you know. I've seen people over the fifteen years come from being Absolute beginners virtually to being quite competent players and singers and performers. Never thought they'd perform before. Never, you know, come to me and say, I'm I'm very I'm alright with the guitar, but I don't mind playing, you know, I don't mind learning and all that and playing with other people, but there's no way I'm ever going to perform. Just don't don't don't ask me, don't expect it. Just know that that's the fact. You know, it's not gonna happen. You know, two or three, two or three events later, you can't get them off the off the stage, you know, because they've built the confidence, they they feel safe, encouraged by the others, uh because the the the bonding happens between the group, um everyone's in the same boat, all of those things. Yeah, so I mean the social aspect of learning it cannot be underestimated. Um and I have a term I actually use called laughing and learning. And you know, if you if I if I thought that we were teaching and people were, shall we say, you know, struggling and really uh f found it quite heavy and oh god, this is really hard, and I don't know, I'm not really feeling like I can do this and I'm you know overwhelmed by it, and I think I'd be doing something wrong. If people are l uh you know, smiling, laughing, if the teacher's making it fun, you know, which is you know, the other the other thing is you know, it's it's it's playing music, not working music. I'm sure these things have been said many times before, but it is a game, it's fun. If it isn't fun, what are you doing? You don't have to do it, you know. It's not something you you know it you it it's necessary for your existence, although we could argue about that as well. Um but uh yeah, it should be fun, should always be fun on one level.
SPEAKER_03It seems to me there's like this this weird gap where you know there's some kind of music happening in kids' lives at schools to a greater or lesser extent, depending on you know maybe they get an hour a week or some don't, in fact. But then school comes to an end, and then there's this sort of great abyss, this musical abyss, unless, of course, you've proper gone gone down on the musical route. There seems to be this yeah, void of music until maybe you join, you go to a guitar retreat or something. There's there's this I know it was like when I was a kid and it wasn't good.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I was basically told I was tone deaf. You know, I was well, I mean, that's fantastically relevant, isn't it? That's just I mean it literally put me, I thought, well, I love music, but I'm not very good at it. Um but there's clearly no way I'm gonna make a living out of it, you know. That I've been told, and there's these other kids in the class which seem to Yeah, play instruments quite well, you know. But I'm just sort of mucking around here, having fun. Thought it was fun, but apparently I can't not disciplined enough, Marshall. You need to play this 14 hours a day, you know, and read music. You have you can't learn anything unless you read music. What are you stupid or something? Yeah, but Stu, I reckon like I'm appreciating.
SPEAKER_03What's this note? I don't know. Is that a lower high? I don't know. I don't care. I'm just I like but I I guess my theory is that even though music education now is not quite as brutal as that, or certainly, you know, not that I've I've heard any instances of language like that being used, but actually it is still often super super selective. You have to be at a certain ability. Well, going back to our first conversation of for my guitar ensemble, my guitar group that I run for for um young people, straight away it's like, well, what level of ability can we have? You know, is is the question that's being asked to me. And my I'm saying, well, actually, we should just literally let everyone in. And not and again, straight away, really, really, you know, and and for my understanding of of that is that well, actually, if you as soon as anything is slightly exclusive in music, that makes some people think that they are not able to have access to that, and I uh that's linking to this whole there's this abyss because I think lots and lots of young people just they dabble in music, but in school there's still this degree of selective process which which is just a very gentle way of saying a euphemist euphemistic way of saying you're not good enough, basically, and then it stops people accessing music throughout their lives because it's so exclusive music, isn't it? It's so which is weird because you think I often go into it when I meet other musicians, I immediately think, oh, these guys are gonna be totally on my way, thanks because they're musicians. Um, but actually, some musicians that I've met are the most elitist, you know, sort of snobby people in the world because they've because it's there's this culture of like having to be this good to be able to do it.
SPEAKER_01I think a lot of people who you know come on my events, the one of the very first questions is am I good enough? Will I be good enough? Um, you know, what what do I need to what level do I need to be at? I'm I'm I'm a bit scared that you know I'm gonna be judged. And what's your response to the work at that? You have to really uh you know explain basically whatever would explain to you um about how it doesn't work like that. And and you know, don't be afraid, no one's gonna judge you. You're all we're all working together here. It's it's a it's a it's a you know a kind of collective and and there will be people better than you, there will be people less able than you, and you won't know that until you're actually on it. And if if you're the least able player, perhaps you you might be a you know might you might influence other people in other ways with your singing, or you might just be quite happy with that because you'll realize that no one's judging you. Because and there's another point I always make. Sometimes I do this at the start when I do an introduction, I say, you know, whatever level you're at now, we were all at one point at the level of not even knowing what end up to hold this instrument. So we've all been there. So the idea that you you know you're somehow special because you can play more chords after 40 years is hilarious. Because if you hadn't, you know, if you hadn't learned more chords in 40 years, you would be pretty, you know, wasted you'd have been wasting your time, you know. Um and and we've all been at at the stage where we're struggling with every single part of it, forming a chord, you know, strumming patterns, picking patterns, whatever it might be, techniques, we've all had to go through that. And once those people understand, once the group understands that's where we're coming from, everyone relaxes. Everyone relaxes because they they go, oh, I don't have to prove my even the good players go, I don't have to prove myself. I don't have to go, oh I'm better. Look, check this out, I can do this, and and and the lower the lesser players can relax because they go, Oh, I'm okay then, you know, I'm accepted. And the thing that you know, the thing that connects us all is well in my case, in in the case of guitar trees, is our love of guitars and playing and guitar mu guitar music, and ultimately a love of music. So you've got all that, you've got them you've got um a lot in common straight away. You know, I've had very funny uh you know, uh seen some amazing kind of collaborations between people from walks of life who you would never put together, you know, like um, you know, Harley Street lawyers and a London taxi cabby, you know. And um when they first sort of introduce themselves in the ring, you know, you think, oh my goodness, that's uh that there's just you know, everything's different. Their entire upbringing, lifestyle, accent, you know, holidays, whatever they do, how they dress, you know, how they think, what they do for a living, you know, within by that, by that later on that evening, they're having an absolutely rapturous uh conversation about you know the different uh guitars that you know all the blues musicians used back in you know the the 40s, 50s, you know, in in great detail and and and tunings and and different stuff that they all that they're both absolutely fascinated by. So they've got this this link which is all about music, you know, hasn't and then everything else disappears. You know, all the all the other stuff, politics and the lifestyle and what you do for a living is gone. Because you just because you're both so interested in and love that, you know, and that's what it I find that's an amazing thing about music. It cried you know it it just destroys all boundaries.
SPEAKER_03So short and and more so than it just being a uniting interest, isn't it? Because the actual it's not like everyone being into model trains or something, is it? It's because there's this sort of emotional liminal as the word that's come up in a previous podcast and article that the people losing themselves in music, which enables everything to sort of melt away, isn't it? Rather than it just being the subject matter, there's something more to it, isn't there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, you know, we could we could I don't know how deep you want to go here, Chris, but you know, there are yeah, go, go, go, yeah, go for it. It immediately touches people's soul and heart in a way that very few other things do in life. You know, um model trains, I'm sure, are very exciting to many people, but are they spiritual? I'm not sure. It's a material thing. Whereas music's completely ethereal, it doesn't have a physical form and and you can't own it, you can you can't really you can't collect it in terms of you know buying vinyl, etc. But um it belongs to everybody all the time and if it's if you can tune into it and allow it to sort of uh you know affect you and in in in emotionally um then you know it it it it will reward you forever. And I I think that's what happens. That was good, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_03That was that was great. That was a that was so much. Trying to articulate it, it's hard, but I mean that was no no that was that was just wonderful, man. To say if you can if you can tune into it and allow it to affect you, it rule will reward you. I mean I I think like three elements there that were I well I f I forget um as a teacher, as a as a musician, as a just a you know chap going through the day, it's that tuning in but let's let's take those one at a time because I wonder if sometimes people on guitar retreats, for example, um or in many a situation, there's this they need like help to tune in to music. Um and this can obviously be any age as well, but I I personally find people like younger, younger kids will just like dial in straight away, and then as they get slightly older, self-conscious, and then you know, and then I'm dealing with a 70-year-old who hasn't ever tuned in and has spent a lifetime tuning out, and that there's that challenge, you know. Your challenge is to help this person tune in. It seems to me that I think guitar retreat sometimes helps people sort of tune in to music.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, I I I I like to think so. Um yeah, it's yeah, and also how do you get people to tune in? Like how do you do it's because it's it's it's a collaborative process. It's um we're all the whole group, well, we do split up into little groups time uh time to time and and and do little projects and then come back and show the rest of the group what what what we've done, but ultimately the whole event is is designed to incorporate everyone there. And so what we do in in the evenings is we always have after dinner we'll have a sing song. So I've got you know I've got some great books with some class the classic pop rock folk songs that we all know and love and have grown up with. And fairly simple chords, you know, not nothing, I think too taxing, so that it's it's easy for everybody there, so the the the the players with the least ability can play it fairly comfortably, you know, three, four chords, whatever, and strumming pattern. And um those with a little bit more skill could perhaps pull up pull off a solo on top of like a pentatonic or something, and uh, or do the fiddly bits, you know, the little licks and that might be involved. But we don't we don't uh teach the song first, we just go right, open your book, page 50, um, you know, whatever it might be, I don't know. Um uh what's that one? But the night's the uh noon is the end. I'm gonna I'm running through the lyrics in my head. A stand by me. That's the one.
SPEAKER_03Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01So there you are, classic. Uh four chord song. We don't teach it, we just go, right, page 50, stand by me. Everybody ready? Key of G. All the chords are there. One, two, three, go. You know. And the whole class just jumps in and plays and sings. If you if you but we always encourage everyone to sing, no matter what their thoughts about their singing are or their ability. And um it's joyous, you know, it's like a kind of uh cross between a a choir and uh a guitar ensemble, you know. And you're swept along by it because you're in the same way that sometimes a a choir works, like a local choir, run them as well. The volume of people hides your if you make a mistake, yeah, it doesn't matter because they can't hit no one else. Is gonna you're not on the spot like you're one of many of many, yeah. And so you just charge ahead. If you miss a chord, it doesn't matter, if you miss a note, it doesn't matter. And um and that people love it, you know. Why wouldn't they? Um it's again that collaboration, that feeling, that freedom, the the the lack of judgment, the the the the just opportunity, the opportunity to do that, you know. How often does that happen in most people's lives?
SPEAKER_03Well that that brings me back to that what I was saying about there's this gap. It's this gap of here's music in school, here it is happening, and then here is your entire life, where maybe you'll go to a music festival or you'll watch it on TV, and then and now you're dead. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Do you know what I mean? I don't absolutely and it's I think it's sometimes difficult as musicians, you know, having spent our lives in bands, in groups, performing, recording whatever we do, mixing basically with other musicians all the time. It's difficult to sort of put yourself in the place where of someone who's spent 30 years in their bedroom on their own. And you're like, yeah, what? You what still blows my mind when I like people say, Yeah, well, I've I've never played with anyone before. You're you're 60. You've never played with another musician before. Wow. I mean that's like makes me feel like incredibly responsible. But make sure we we change that pretty quick, you know, and that we change it permanently as well. But yeah, as I said, from our point of view, um we don't it's hard to to think like that. It's hard to imagine what that's like. I can't imagine what that's like. I wouldn't it wouldn't be something I would be able to live with, I suppose. Because it's just been part of my life ever since I can remember, really, is just playing with other people in in in in whatever scenario, you know, around a campfire, in a rehearsal room, in in your bedroom, whatever. Just hanging out. But I came up from that band thing. I came up from just like meeting k kids at school and forming a punk band or whatever, I think we first thing we did, you know, just picking up instruments without really any knowledge how to play them much. Very little resources around at the time to to learn you know some very bad guitar books. Um and uh I mean not in videos I think at the time, so but and you know, and just DIY So in a weird way perhaps that's better, you know, because it I didn't have anything to measure it against apart from the records that I was listening to. Thinking, how do they play that? I want to play like that. That's great.
SPEAKER_03You know you you said your third or no, your second bit in that lovely little statement was um allow yourself to be affected by uh by music.
SPEAKER_02Hmm.
SPEAKER_03So that's a good one, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um I guess so, yeah. Again, not something I've had to much trouble problem with.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Well, I I was I was sort of thinking about it in that um you l there's certain pieces of music or artists that you might associate with a particular time that might be painful and you avoid listening to it because you might not articulate it, but it's that sort of actually, I just don't really want those feelings there, so I'll just avoid it. I wonder if that's quite a uh an accessible way of explaining the idea of just. not uh allowing yourself to access music because you get a bit degree of like emotional vulnerability in your heart and uh be susceptible to you know emotions that you you you you're perhaps burying or don't want to feel you know you know when a piece of music can bring you to tears that's quite I think unnerving yeah it's like but it but then it's weird because I I've I've always had this um this thing right and I I I I'm gonna choose my words very carefully because my my mum's just started listening to this podcast and this directly references I guess sorry about like yeah because it it this what we're about to say references my upbringing but I the my parents used to listen to classical music at dinner right which I used to hate yeah right because it I just be like guys this is like the most powerful like gut wrenching stuff and it's just in the background being because it's sort of nice but it's not nice it's painful right it's you know it's otherworldly and you're yeah I'm trying to eat my dinner I can't hack this and like yeah you know yeah yeah you know it was the 90s um so yeah that that's that's always interest interested me that that sometimes music can just get end up being but used in that way but it's so powerful and I wonder if it's because people that yeah can't uh allow themselves to access um what what did you what what was did you what did you say accept or allow yourself to be influenced I go um it's gone yeah it it open up to it and it accept it and you know oh it's yeah but but yeah I th I wonder I think there's a lot of us who do just it's it's that heart opening thing but but I know people are gonna listen to that and probably switch off as soon as they heard you say that's true who is this guy good job they can't see you uh because then they'll be like wow definitely is a hippie um but how how do how do you explain that in that relate to people who who don't want to uh think about things from a hippies perspective um i mean it means to to I guess let the music kind of take you over so that you're you're not you're not so much a listening to it anymore you're feeling it feeling the the vibrations of the sound and they are affecting you physically now we've had another conversation about this which it might be another podcast but you know music is vibration there's no argument but scientifically it's vibration and you as a being vibrate you know the universe vibrates we're getting really hippie now but um there's also scientific and so those those vibrations will affect you physically and therefore mentally as well if you stand in front of a sub-bass uh speaker yeah as I did recently at a festival you will feel that physically as if your stomach will move about and and it will move your bones and it will move your body make you want to dance I mean dance the dance is the is the ultimate expression of that imagine turning off the music imagine watching you we've seen this you know watching a load of people dancing and then just muting the screen it's quite funny isn't it it's quite what's going on here some people yeah moving and some yeah jumping around in some very strange ways there's that great video where they they do that with um with um the stones have you seen that one that uh recently with start you up they take out all the sound and you just watch oh and is it just Mick Jagger sort of waving around bizarre moves and and and Keith and Ronnie sort of strutting around and um and and it's it's just fascinating because you go wow that is what's making them move like that because it's not it doesn't look like kind of the sort a normal way to move it's like the Ministry of Silly Walks or something you know it's the music it's the vibrations of of it it's the beat the rhythm they are feeling that a hundred percent it's not they're not listening to it or they are but you know what I mean it's it's yeah yeah yeah this isn't active listening it's just happening to you and you're connecting with it and connecting on a deep level and I think for the average person who might not consider themselves a musician that's another term which I think we need to be careful about musician who's a what's a musician I don't know I I sometimes I've spent a lot of my life struggling with the idea of calling myself a musician I love music I play music I have I can have some ability on some instruments and I can sing but does that make me a musician yeah but then then there's a guy you know down the road who you know I don't know what you know works in uh is a on on a farm all day 12 hours a day um and comes down the open right and can play an incredible fiddle doesn't call himself a musician it's not you know it's just that's what I do it's just a hobby um it's interesting isn't it so I kinda got sidetracked there I lost my place where I was random I get I guess we're delving into the ideas of like the the rational and the irrational I suppose isn't it in that the the work the idea sometimes these musical ideas that we're talking about like being a musician or um being good or being bad they're sort of very rational things aren't they but ultimately this is it's irrational it's just like it's vibrations and feelings things that we can't truly sort of explain and articulate they just we we can see it we can see it and we can feel it I I I was going to come in with a going back to the sort of vibration and dancing thing to offer a little I don't know if this is an anecdote or a story but uh an experience that I think is relevant to that is uh at a a friend's funeral this is maybe uh a few years ago and she had a samba band performing at the graveside so quite a beautiful funeral a be a very beautiful person who would you would expect some just wonderful creative flair from and we're putting seeds into the onto the grave and there's a samba band playing right by it full force you know surdos and snare tac tac tac ta and it was just like the craziest experience I've ever had because it's just such a contradiction but I it was it was amazing as well because you're feeling obviously all these feelings of sadness but then wanting to physic move every inch of my body because it's just when a especially when a sample band's that close because you can feel it you can physically feel that you know it's making you want to move in that way with it but then I mean it's a cultural thing isn't it because obviously that's like if a New Orleans procession for example you know um a funeral procession is is a and a dancing thing and a seemingly joyful but I just yeah it's but it did it did start to make perfect sense once I sort of relaxed into it and accepted it because it's just we we tend to put feelings don't we into these ridiculously rational camps of you know somebody has died this is very sad and we will sit very still and maybe cry a little bit not too much and then you know but then actually here's this oh music and vibration and feeling and actually this these feelings that you're having aren't just happy or sad they're just feelings and they're emotions energy in motion isn't it that's the energy in emotion explain yes and energy in motion being emotion. Absolutely another great way of explaining it it's yeah it's kind of emotion in s in sound form yeah it is you know it's it's uh and and it and also it's it's different for everybody a song a piece of music has a different response to everybody you know it may be it maybe uh you know a l it has an overall effect if it's happy or sad but you know a song as you well know a piece of music can have a very personal meaning and effect to an individual um is is that because it isn't happy or sad and that and then it is that's just a silly label that we sort of put on something and it's it's actually that that's just our way of articulating it and going this is a happy song this is because I listen to sad stuff that makes me feel happy and that's quite a common thing isn't it that sort of sad songs making you feel I was having this conversation with some I'm not messed up am I I'm not psychotic there's another example for you a physical response that sort of tingle you get down the spine or the goosebumps you get like when you hear a piece of music woo it's like a woo little wave goes through you know and that again is all part of that being open and tuning in and allowing it to affect you know let it in don't shut it out I had a man who came to my I used to run a uh well I still do run singing groups but I used to run a a a choir and uh guy came to the first initial um you know um group meeting and uh he said he said I I'm I don't know why I'm here he said I I'm gonna give it a go he said but to be honest with you I I can't get a note out of the bank. I was I love that saying I can't get a note out of the note and he said I I know that he said but I just want to sing he said I love I love singing he said I love I'm just gonna do it I said great bring it up you're welcome you know come in just find your own place just shout whatever you need to do and um he really felt music really felt he could really feel it and he had a very low register like a kind of Johnny Cash voice and it took him a while to kind of play and because he he was trying to sing you know in in keys that that weren't suitable really that which mainly meant that he went out tune or choked off for once he found his level he became this amazing bedrock of the choir you know it was it was his job to be the bass note you know to provide the bottom end and he's now he's now a member of several shanti singing groups as a kind of performer it's part it's a massive part of his life now it's like so um he found it you know he f he loud it he loud it in he tuned into it and found his found it where it worked and uh and and and and ran with it amazing I think we're done I think I've done thank you so much Stuart thank you Chris thank you so much to you for listening to this episode and thank you to Faber Music and Soundstorm for making it possible