The Music Education Podcast

Episode 12 - Andy Guitar: Youtube and Teaching to Camera

February 28, 2021 Chris Woods Episode 12
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 12 - Andy Guitar: Youtube and Teaching to Camera
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode Chris speaks to Andy Guitar about all things on online learning.

hank you so much for joining me today can we start off with a little bit of uh who you are and what you do my name's andy crowley but i go by andy guitar on online and youtube i'm a youtube guitar teacher but i also have a website that teaches guitar and i've been doing this for 12 years now online wow but but for the first five years i was a face-to-face teacher teaching evening classes in a school teaching from home and got fully booked with that done various other things like being in a cover band back in the day being um a lighting engineer at o2 academy type venues but for the past six years or so i've pretty much been yeah i've been youtube full-time and website full-time i divide my time between both and i see them kind of they they're both part of the same thing

i think that's a fantastically humble introduction to what you do really andy i think um so i got called out i i got called out by a friend of mine for um this friend of mine being sean daniel from uh for also from youtube and he he he said we he claimed when he was talking to me about like humble brags i i was like oh no i don't even do it and he's like no you don't and then throughout the conversation i then did it another three times like one way or another so the the other the other claim to fame is that i do have the most watched guitar lesson video on youtube and i do have one of those big gold um one million subscriber plaques which is up there on the wall um you need to put it behind you andy i mean it's i a reflection of your personality perhaps that you're maybe do you know another reflection of the personality it's above where i work so it's like a reminder like that's that's what you that's what you're supposed to be so you've got to be that by the way so i i i like the explanation of the the most watched guitar lesson video on youtube which is uh encompasses how successful you are in in this sense but i don't you're kind of like a household name in the way of learning uh quick access to uh so well i mean there's there's many more levels to it but i know particularly from my point of view if i need to learn a song i will go to you and you will be teaching it and and that's just so wide um i think even not just for you know guitar teachers and people delivering that stuff what what what's the story man how did it sort of how did it come about really really naturally but i can um explain that very simply by saying i was a face-to-face guitar teacher just working from home and in many ways that was like my that was my dream job being able to teach guitar for a living was something that i was aware of even being a 15 16 year old seeing the ads in the paper and stuff um and youtube and i'd say online video but you know youtube was online video back in 2009 when i started teaching because there was nowhere else that you could really upload videos and it you know it was it was almost like a video library it was it was just it was just free online hosting it was the videos i uploaded to youtube in 2009 and 2010 were not meant to be seen by the world on youtube and trying to be a youtuber it was simply to put videos up there so i could put the url on my website and show it there were literally four one-to-one lessons so going back to the thermoswatch guitar lesson on youtube which at some point that's that's not going to be the case but i believe at this date at the start of 2021 it is um that video was filmed on a 20 pound webcam that i still have i'm using a better one now so this is literally like better in some ways better quality than literally the video and um i even say in that video this is what to expect before your first lesson with me because it was on my website as like this is a test because all i was seeing when i was advertising in leeds which is what i started teaching was like absolute beginner to absolute begin another absolute beginner from people from all walks of life all ages from 6 to 96 but they were they were total beginners that were coming to me naturally so i made those videos for youtube just teaching an easy song or the same stuff that i would do in lessons and that one video it had a catchy title i knew it was a catchy title play ten songs with two chords um but yeah that video just blew up and that's the only reason you describe me as a household name which i am if you've googled guitar lessons but i'm not a household name unless you've googled guitar lessons um but yeah that's the that's the only reason that anything sort of took off for me i've built other layers to that i've i've built upon that and built a more robust thing um with like the website teaching guitar and being quite self-sufficient aside from youtube but yeah the the youtube traffic funnels everything and um yeah i've been very lucky in that regard because there's only so much planning you or there's only so there's only so good you can be before it becomes just up to the internet or down to algorithms and just down to pure luck basically the gods of the algorithms who are the algorithms themselves perhaps i guess so right i think i actually think it is fair to say a household name because i know you're saying if you've googled guitar lessons but i mean that's that's a pretty household uh wide thing to have done isn't it i mean um and that what that's amazing to hear that that's come from that sort of real um it's essentially a real face-to-face interaction because you're linking that video was linked to the actual real-time lessons that you were giving and then it's sort of grown into this amazing library um of lessons how what's changed uh from how you were delivering lessons at that point to how you're delivering them now because i personally what i recognize is the wonderful simplicity in which you explain them um you know has that is that a key all the way through this journey or has that sort of evolved i think from teaching anyone face to face you learn that people learn different things at different speeds but also they can get one concept but not another and when you give them both even though they might get one the whole thing falls apart and they just can't accept what you're telling and they can't they can't internalize it so that certainly makes me have a good instinct for keeping the more complex things simple um and there's also that other thing which is and i don't know who's a quote from but um you know if you can't explain a complex thing simply then you don't understand it and i'd really like that i think people there there's a lot of and how things change with delivery i think keeping things simple in a world where a lot of the biggest youtubers in my space are actually well more knowledge way more knowledgeable than me way more qualified than me the one thing that stands i stand apart with is keeping things simple for the everyday person because that is what that those are the people that i was seeing that were that were naturally coming to me just from a few videos and basic advertising for face-to-face lessons

that's wonderful learning people learn things at different things at different speeds um so your is your solution to catering for that that fact that very very basic education fact which we kind of probably all are guilty of forgetting whether it is that you're sat one to one with a student or whether you're sat in a classroom of 30 kids that everyone is learning things at different speeds but also different parts of what you're providing so your solution to that is is simplicity of sort of demonstration or yes but there there must be some kind of knack for keeping simple things entertaining which um it has to be said like pretty much all the biggest youtubers all have a kind of silly accent or some kind of silly voice which for the rest of the world or anyone outside of yorkshire i have a bit of a silly accent which i have toned down so much just to be understood because there's no point there's no point in speaking unless you're be to be understood than to be understood but even when i went to university which was about 20 miles from where i was born i went to university in huddersfield but so there were so many people from london and international students at university and for the first week they could not understand me because that's something because i said something like hey up my name's andy what's your name and they went what i was like oh okay and then there were other people that you know um they had a name that was just a little bit weird to pronounce that perhaps wasn't you know something as simple as andy and that was just a running joke for the entire first year so that was another lesson where um my second name's crowley but anyone from london in particular will naturally read that and think it is crowley which is not wrong because there's ozzy osbourne mr crowley and then anyone else reading it might say crawly but crawley is how it's spelled with an a and then you go like okay this is a simple last name but even that's complicated so how can we simplify that and the solution was to just say andy guitar which there are a few other someone guitars in this world there was even an andy guitar in london who had or something to that effect and i was like okay if he's doing it in his local area i'll do that for my local area and then it was only afterwards that it became a good thing for worldwide stuff but yeah even then yeah speaking to be understood was a huge lesson that i learned early on

so sorry andy are you sort of almost suggesting that because you said you sort of toned down your accent but then you said is it that it's a unique identifying thing as well but it's kind of a yeah well there's that sweet spot isn't that it's like i don't know it's like billy connolly billy connolly's really really scottish comedian but he got so much more famous to my understanding when he started doing things in america but if you listen back to any videos of him in the 70s americans would not have understood him because he's his and it's his dialect it's the words that he uses and the terms of phrase just wouldn't be understood outside of glasgow um but billy connolly still sounds scottish but to anyone from where he's from they go he doesn't sound like us or he doesn't sound like he used to and i really really identify with that to the point where i even take the mickey out of um rock stars and pop stars like a couple of guys from one direction and alex turner from the arctic monkeys because they have that weird kind of mid-atlantic you know it's kind of odd the odd yorkshire isms and then the odd words from elsewhere but i hold my hands up that's exactly me because that's that's what's happened and it's just from being understood and from moving outside of your local area because the north of england in particular more than most places is so um has such colloquial language and dialects that are different five miles down the road there are entire words and things that don't exist five miles down the road so yeah when you when you're talking like worldwide stuff it really matters oh yeah i mean i i feel like we're talking about something fantastically sensitive as well because the sort of advice that that you've got especially as i'm speaking with a sort of a particularly generic southern english accent my friend who was from somewhere else used to tell me to tone down my englishness in fact um but that englishness could be really endearing to someone that you know but even isn't as familiar with it or even the fact that he referred to it as englishness whereas you're just your accent is just as englishness as my accent is englishness so it's kind of i feel we're almost going to start to have some kind of political conversation about this stuff oh no we don't we're i'm purely doing music as a as escapism we don't need any of that but yeah but you know what i mean it's it's it's that's huge stuff that you're sort of having to adjust how you talk but then on a less sort of philosophical way actually just in education changing how you talk is a day-to-day part of of communicating and you're talking about communicating with a global audience so actually taking that into consideration is obviously a huge thing i have people who've messaged me saying that they do look they i help them learn english and i'm like dear god don't do it oh yes that's amazing i think i think that's great i mean you know one of the reasons i tune into your channel is because your accent mate i think i think i think you should tone it up um

it does come out sometimes it's when you're not thinking about it my girlfriend laughs whenever i'm on the phone to my mum for like the hour afterwards my mom is so she's so correct what's he called correct pronunciation like queen's english she does she totally does a telephone voice correct pronunciation or something um yeah my mum you know from where we're from is so well spoken but i talk on the phone for five minutes and i'm like i go back to how it was 15 years ago more um but yeah it is what it is it's great it's great man i think it's interesting that we're even terming it as as well spoken um but hey anyway what so that's fantastic in a sort of a global communication way which is obviously something that specifically faces um as a challenge or a key to sort of your success in that way what about when it's just specific uh to video communication which is something that obviously like we were saying in our little chat before that all teachers all educators are now realizing hmm i'm gonna have to explain this over zoom or another popular platform that is available or i'm going to have to pre-record a video lesson and i know let's be honest that some people are absolutely awful at that because it's not something that's super easy what's the tips to success there andy you're when he's talking to a camera you're speaking to one person is the biggest tip and i even i taught so many people back in the day like 10 years ago eight years ago that i even imagine one of those people that i taught a lot that i'm teaching it to them um and that's that's the biggest thing because it is it's almost like what the the show black mirror when i want to explain to my girlfriends you know where that came from and it was like the black mirror is a screen that's turned off and she was like whoa that's it but you kind of have a very small black mirror as a uh a thing that you're talking to so it's not a friendly look when you're talking to camera but if you just imagine that it's a person and it's a person that um you are trying to keep engaged with what you're doing because we all like look at our phone and then look elsewhere and then look at the tv and look elsewhere you're trying to keep them here so that you can show them the thing and that will help them um yeah there are little tricks to doing that but you learn those as you go the first and foremost thing is you're talking to one person so if you've got a million people watched a video one million people connect with it because you're speaking to that one person every time that they watch it

wow which makes the the sort of medium of video learning quite unique in that sense doesn't it because it's more personal than say a group lesson in some senses group lessons can be very hard um not least over zoom but of course in in actual group lessons which i do i've i still do to this day we still do like um guitar breaks and we do you know guitar retreats or the odd one-off group lesson to 15 people 20 people or six people sometimes you know multiple people in a room the way that you can do that with people physically there is perhaps to teach the same song or same concept but at multi-level so you have a basic way to do it and you try and group those together here intermediates here the advanced people there and you can even in you know for guitar lessons you can have the people that have more beginners just playing the chords or doing the riff um the advanced players improvising a solo over that riff but you know trying to make sure the beginners don't hear it too loud to put them off and the intermediate players can have the kappa in a different position for example you're all jamming the same song but you're giving three different lessons and the song's just a vehicle with zoom lessons really hard to do that and in fact i have loads of experience with this because i did live streaming for about a year and a half once a week about a year on facebook and then about six months on youtube pre-covered craziness yeah yeah this was like um but one of the reasons i haven't done any live streaming during covert times has been it it was it was just inefficient to do what i wanted it to do um which you know if you the whole unless you're taking live questions or doing something that has to be seen live there's no point in doing a live stream make a video on it make a video instead that's that's planned and that you put across what you want to put across if you're taking questions it's very difficult to take questions with with the amount of comments that were coming up for me because it was just a massive questions and you're just scrolling through comments all the time and it stops being an engaging video one way we could have done it is by having someone else with me doing the questions and then feeding the questions to me that would have been a good way to do it but then i'm having to pay someone else for their time or we're having to do something like it it just becomes more than it is worth and it just wasn't the route that i wanted to go down i wanted to make my pre-exist the content that becomes the back catalog as solid as possible the live streams were not rewatchable basically and i was like i don't want to do that everything that's worked for me to grow online kind of compounds and a lot of videos that keep getting views kind of get more views over time not less because it kind of goes out exponentially that's where the 1 million subscribers thing come from and i was like if i'm gonna do more of that i need to make sure to everything that i'm in control of that keeps happening rather than just the one shot and it's gone and it's fascinating you know because when covid hit i remember my facebook stream was just for a good two months it was 90 live videos from oh yeah friend friends musicians and you're sort of thinking well what's the i mean obviously it's it's a really this is no criticism of those people doing that i certainly did one as well but it's kind of that what we're almost working out what was the value of that because it's like we missed live performance but actually if you're not in a venue and picking up a vibe this is a this is a totally different beast is there any reason for you to actually do that what's the sort of no of course and it was all forced upon people wasn't it people working out how to make the most of of the time and you know who's a captive audience with everyone at home but also that became telly for a while you know graham norton was zoom calls

um and what i saw happening or what connected with me was well not what would connect with most people everything just became niche a live streamers i like to follow were not the ones getting loads of views were not the popular ones it was literally just something that was really specific to me there was one live stream with the drummer from the arctic monkeys uh who's matt helders he never does interview i haven't seen an interview with him for 15 years he wasn't talking about anything in particular he was talking about drumming and stuff i think it was a drummer who was doing the interview but i was like this is amazing because i know we won't see this often um another one's daniel sloth who was literally just day drinking on camera he's a stand-up comedian he's a i love him as a stand-up but he's literally day drinking but he just he do it was his way of doing stand-up to a live audience and keeping sharp but making it a thing as well and the joke was his sky sorry daydream um he is now live streaming on twitch now i don't get twitch but twitch is largely gaming um but live streaming of youtubers is certainly more moved to twitch rather than staying on youtube because it doesn't necessarily or i've heard it actually damages your youtube channel if you get a lot of views and then you live stream and the live streams don't get the engagement it damages the channel which was another reason to say why i wouldn't do it

really really interesting really kind of refreshing to hear someone who's so uh have their career based within tech to talk about other platforms and always be like yeah i don't i don't know i get that word oh tell me honestly i've never had any traction at all on facebook or instagram for example you know i i get some people crossing over but it's really it's almost impossible to port an audience so if you've got a big youtube following or on if you're big on tick tock it's really hard to get those people to cross over to another platform to the point where it's almost not really worth it you just have to be you have to do more of what works on that platform build them all individually so if anyone that's like wanting to build a social following themselves or do something that i do you have to pick one platform to maximum because the same stuff ain't gonna work on another platform and yeah for me that has totally been all in on youtube but also google because google and youtube are really related they're the same company really and youtube is all about coming up on search terms and or at least it was a while ago um it's it's more about ranking well for search terms and getting views when people search for something people search how to for example how to play guitar i want to come up google is exactly the same and that was the same as when i was trying to rank for guitar lessons leads 10 years ago on facebook you don't search for a video they pop up and i've never never got that i've never been good at that style of content same with instagram it's got to it's just a video that pops up you know you can even like find a video pop-up and then you can't find it the day after if you want to re-watch it which is why they got the new saved feature and stuff um so yeah that that those sort of platforms i've never done well with and also i just don't like them because it's out of your control i guess like i yeah i i don't work well with those type of platforms youtube's been more in my bag that that's really interesting really really interesting i suppose instagram and facebook are more sort of it's passive consumption isn't it it's like you're sat watching the tv and what's on next is um is what you're gonna watch rather than go okay i'm gonna find out this unique piece of information let's um we've covered some epic ground already i feel i feel this is this is gold dust if we stopped it right now anyway i'm i'm particularly pleased at how it's going but let's can we go back uh again and sort of reflect on um almost how we got here and how things have changed because so you're talking about youtube in this way of you know search terms and okay i want to learn how to play this particular track or i want to learn how to play barre chords um and that is an incredible thing to be able to do if we sort of forget that we have the internet for a moment let's see you know when when i was a teenager um that wasn't a thing that really existed it was um a thing of okay maybe i think tabs were starting to appear i remember looking up the odd riff or i don't know if it was ultimate guitar i seem to remember like 9-1-1 tabs or something like that oh yeah yeah it's a real um i know they're all in this sort of text format and but but they were it's pretty bad quite often and definitely in comparison to now as you say where ev if i want to learn the best way to play this song and i've got a million different options um yeah what what's your sort of reflection on on that sort of difference and i mean how how old are you buddy how what was your sort of growing up experience in that sense 34 so i learned guitar pre-internet right did i get better at guitar post internet hell yeah but i actually i'll be honest i don't know how i did so well at learning guitar and in many ways i didn't um because i never had traditional lessons i had like a handful of lessons with group lessons when i was like nine and here today and then i asked for a guitar for my 13th birthday and had an acoustics from some chords for a year got an electric after that but it i was having piano lessons from being about nine so i the way i see it is i learnt music and then i learned how to play music on a guitar afterwards but i got and wow technology and general midi and the piano roll and drawing the notes in that was something i used to do for fun i just i love that kind of i used to copy um you know pop songs that i heard on the radio and try and find them and try and make it all sound like it um and that's just what using the piano role rather than the notation actually i was doing that from b9 but i had an older brother who's well into his computer music so i'd seen him doing that he made little backing tracks for me and then i got his old computer at some point and he he taught me a coup a couple of things and let me play man it rains a lot in yorkshire so i was i was on that a lot i couldn't always play outside you know so that that was um that was what i did rather than you know or or the same thing as computer games for me i just thought it was the same thing um but yeah therefore reading tab was a real block for me and learning by ear was quicker because i just didn't get the tab thing and then it really wasn't until i left uni started considering to become a teacher and wanted to sharpen my skills learn a whole new bunch of songs learning songs to be in a cover band and and playing a wedding band and stuff i needed to learn a lot more stuff i got loads better at reading tab very quickly through having to be having to do it and um but it was a struggle and the kind of interactive tab that's available now and more gamification of learning um would have been amazing for me back in the day and it would have changed how i learned but i also might not be not have as good ear training as i do now um which is the other four with the more gamification and a bit more spoon fed learning do they do the ears and the natural instinct for rhythm and things do they do they develop as much as they need to because but all the best guitar players learnt by having vinyl recordings and just listening to them and copying what they heard that way and then checking the fingers afterwards you know check check uh the fingers when they saw them live or something like that um so yeah there's there's no right or wrong way and that just shows more how different things kind of connect um yeah that's that's that's really interesting um in the sense of maybe this is why we can always um because i was going to ask you if you thought that you know youtube if you like lessons were going to gradually phase out one-to-one sessions um oh if anything i see it the other way i think youtube will make more people play guitar i think we've seen that during the pandemic but i also think anybody that i don't i get so many requests all the time for one to one lessons and if i did them after time i'd just be showing them like what i'm showing them in a video but again people don't learn the same and everybody wants what's good what's going to help me you know what's going to help me obviously isn't what's going to help everyone so so how can you help me right now and often that is the same thing that everybody needs but just told in a way that makes it relevant to that person so there's still value in basically creating a sort of a curriculum for an individual because we can't absolutely you can't tell people what to google search but basically they yeah that oh you can but you you they don't know instinctively what what to search for so you're you're you're always when i do one-to-one i'm always creating a personalized curriculum from a whole backlog of stuff and i've heard that's a very good way to do it but obviously you can't do that at scale it only ever works one-to-one sort of thing um but yeah there will always be and there's more one-to-one teachers now than there ever was in the 90s pre-internet

right okay so you think the two are going hand in hand then they're sort of growing because they're absolutely there is a i know i want to be able to well maybe i could edit this in afterwards couldn't i um there's a philosopher who sort of talked about tech um always being a sort of an extension of the human um sort of needs and ideas and that's sometimes we can view the the internet or um you know video lessons or whatever is you know this is trying to be a replacement but it's it's not is it it's um an augmentation is that a good way of sort of describing it it is yeah and and people learn from people is a huge thing so you know someone can be saying all the exact right stuff to them but you don't listen to them like i don't know your parents if your parents tell you something you don't listen because my mom and dad they're always talking nonsense but you know if your friend at school tells you something you take it as solid gold even though it's like you know not qualified at all but it's just someone who you have that rapport with often it's someone um removed from your personal situation like you know my dad i did a few driving lessons with my dad and my driving got worse i had driving lessons with an instructor and my driving was fine and it's just because it's just it's the natural situation my girlfriend who i live with um watched my videos for ukulele lessons um on youtube and then i showed her a couple of things to take her more than that and she was like yeah i actually prefer this guy on the video you you talk too much i can mute him so again kind of comes down to personality then even maybe how you're shaping your voice and how all these sort of like tiny nuances you think or it's a lot of tiny nuances and oh it's talking about that it's a huge learning curve when you first start seeing yourself on camera um and then seeing yourself on camera as much as i do uh yeah talk about being self-aware it's exactly the same thing as hearing your own voice on a uh on an answering machine or something just to put it into context for anyone else listening that hasn't recorded themselves or anything um but yeah when it's so and i mean i had the same thing when i started to learn to sing and i was like okay this i can sing in tune but there's a lot of things i don't like about my voice how can i change that for that um and you want to sing better but you have to like change how your mouth is how you breathe everything to improve your singing and i've also taken all those that sort of knowledge i moved it over to video and how i speak and things like that right so it's so you would suggest to people who are now moving to the medium of of video for lessons to to review how they're doing it and and tweak and change if if you don't do that you're learning in the dark if that's something that you're trying to improve on if someone was learning guitar whether online or in person at some point you have to record yourself because you need to it's everything sounds different sounds sound different when you're listening back to them as to when you're producing them it's the only way to improve that thing and it's the same for video because what what makes what ends up in the video is all people see you can have loads of ideas that you thought you said in the video or how you thought you delivered it but until you you review it back you have no idea it's really interesting as far as like classroom teachers go because i think you know reflect reflective practice it's a sort of obsessional teacher thing for good reason because we obviously want teachers to be better and not be rubbish but having said that the idea of recording their their acting you know is a relatively new thing i think i think there was uh the name of the the program escapes me but there was a uh a thing in a school that i was involved in where it was teachers recording their lessons and then reflecting back and sort of peer reviewing it almost but that's that's not really a standard thing whereas well it is a standard thing but it's done by either ofsted or done by someone in that school because every teacher that starts us i i've done some teaching at a um music university in brighton called waterbear it's kind of a startup but it was amazing to have the opportunity to do university-level teaching um and yeah i was observed and assessed for that lesson and um yeah it's it's i think every everybody is at some point but if you're not used to it it's quite different though isn't it from someone else feeding back to you being sitting there and going oh whoa i actually sound like that or i look at that or i think it might be a shock to a lot of people and if if they've not done it yet find a way to do it even if it's not in the classroom situation because it's enlightening for sure um it's gonna make you better ultimately isn't it i suppose yeah but it's an ego steep learning curve though it's it's as i say ego must sort of you've got to be prepared right you've got to be sort of fairly resilient not to just go oh i'm awful and and just give up in that sense it is but i do the same with students where it's like there's only if you're recording yourself playing an instrument for example and you record it on your own there's only you going to hear it so it's nothing the only thing you've been scared about is letting yourself hear it but in many ways if anybody else heard that they'd they'd hear they've heard you speak before they've seen you before they know you're better than you sometimes so yeah it's um it's just an opportunity to get that third eye to improve those things and i'm i'm very receptive to that i know a lot of people aren't and it's a virtue if they're not sometimes because that's why we like the people we like that's why we like the artists we like the musicians that we like they are authentic they are themselves but um yeah if you want to be a teacher i think part of it is having that mouse to adjust how you are and then try and inspire someone in their own in something that's going to connect with them wonderful thank you so andy to to guide us towards the end of conversation what can i ask you what your um sort of vision of future well i say vision not that you've got a plan globally uh for the rest of the world um and and you're moving into politics or something but well well i'd vote for you but what what do you what do you think is going to happen because you you must sort of you must be looking forward to the future um with your your business as from a youtube perspective from an app perspective what what do you see as as happening within the next few years with learning and tech in this way pre-pandemic i thought i'm going to end up re-filming all my lessons within the next five years in 3d or something or in hologram form you know what i mean i did i don't know seriously you really sort of thought okay i could see it happening i could see a change probably happening but if anything what the pandemics taught me in terms of tech is it needs to be user-friendly to take off at all and the ideas of tech are always well way behind what people use um so i just but i do think a lot of the norms things that have become normal during this last year my are here to stay for a lot longer than um than the end of it being a pandemic or anything things like zoom calls through work and people working from home if not all the time a lot of the time um because it's been proven to work basically you can work from home you can do zoom meeting meetings and it doesn't all fall apart and people do work when they're not in the office and i think before this last year i think that was actually a bigger question than uh than it is now and it's cheaper as well because you i work from home because then i don't have to pay another for another building i don't have to pay for a receptionist or at least and i don't have to travel to work so it saves a bit of time that's the same for any business now and you know that when the bottom lines are getting close the first thing to to try is to keep working from people your staff working from home basically or remote workers from anywhere in the world you know i employ video editors and web developers none of them live in brighton and it's just irrelevant for certain jobs there's always those jobs where you know someone needs to be there um but i think for those where it's a bit on the fence it will become a 50 50 type thing you know 50 in the office and then 50 working from home or working remotely