The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 15 - John K Miles: Observations, ideas and tea
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In this episode Chris talks to composer John K Miles.
Hello and welcome to the Music Education Podcast. I'm Chris of the Chris Woods Groove Orchestra, and this podcast is brought to you by the Soundstorm Music Education Hub. In this episode, I speak to John K. Miles, a composer who's worked in a plethora of different educational settings. And we chat about his observations of working in these different settings. And through that, I think John offers some really interesting and fresh perspectives on how perhaps we could offer music education differently. I hope you enjoy the conversation. John, thank you so much for joining me today. Can we start off with a little intro from you as to who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_00Well, my name is uh John K. Miles. I've got the K in there because uh it's quite a common name, and also there's a very famous 70s pop singer called John Miles. So, John K. Miles, I'm a composer, and uh I I also play various instruments. In fact, I I spent my early career making a living playing the saxophone. But um yeah, I'm a composer that that works with in various ways. I work with score, but I've also done thousands and thousands of collaborative projects with various community groups. I've often been the interface between orchestras and community groups, um, and I use a variety of musical musical tools. I I use score, like I say, I use a lot of improvisation. I spend a lot of time practicing improvisation myself. And um I've also just written a novel as well, so I'm very interested in um writing narrative and writing and and in the written word. So I'm just I'm very interested in being creative in general where wherever wherever possible.
SPEAKER_01Great. So I I I think I I know you most for the sort of education side of composition, I suppose, which is sort of most unique. Um what maybe more specifically, what do you sort of do in that way for people who who don't know of you?
SPEAKER_00Well, I tend to run projects, so um, and I usually approach all those projects with quite an open mind, um, depending on who I'm working with. So I will, you know, I might do a tiny bit of planning in the sense that um I might have some starting points that might work or might not work, but I tend to turn up um at a project with an open mind because I find that works the best and try and try and have faith in in the creative environment that we can make and also in my own skills to try and draw that out. So I've tried yeah, I find that that tends to work best. Obviously, I use some sort of set things to make the make the group feel like they're in the same space together and to try and make everybody feel like they can contribute to the work. But essentially, most of the projects I do are about making a piece of music or creating something. Um, and what that is often depends on who the group is, what their ideas are. Um, sometimes we have to do a project to a brief, but uh often, you know, I'll get the group to respond to that too, because I, you know, I think it's amazing. This idea of the the autonomous composer genius coming into a into a situation and making a piece of music is, I think, quite a destructive idea uh at times, because it's I think it's an idea that was slightly cultivated and got out of hand in the 19th century, um and it and it never really recovered in classical music. This idea of the sort of genius coming up with a concept um and and working away into the late hours, um making this great expression of their thoughts on the world. And I think there is a place for that, but personally I find it a lot more interesting to work with people because they often have as good or if not better ideas than you. Um and that goes for for people of all ages. I think sometimes you get kids of six or seven coming up with ideas that that you might never have thought about. They might they look at the world in a different way. So um, in terms of education, coming back to education, I'm trying to facilitate creativity and along the way deliver some attendant technical skills about how you you might facilitate creativity and also some attendant technical skills in music making in general, you know, some simple lots of simple things like playing in time together or uh playing in tune together. I think all those things naturally come out of just working together. And the the the the advantage of of working in a group like that in a creative way is that everybody can find a role. So experience isn't, you know, your sort of whether you're grade, you know, grade eight, whatever that means, you know, or or you're a beginner, or you're you come from a more informal music making background, um, or you have no musical experience whatsoever, everybody can make a contribution. Um, and the and what comes out is a s is is really the sum of that group of people and that moment in time. Okay. You slightly went off onto the artistic, uh, the artistic thing there. So yeah, we can talk about the educational benefits of that approach um further if you want. But um I think for me, being you know, working as an artist and as an educationalist go hand in hand. And there isn't really a contradiction there for me. I don't think that that there has to be a particular um yeah, I don't think you know, we we often offic often think of education as something separate to practice, our own personal practice as artists, but I don't think it needs to be.
SPEAKER_01Fascinating. John, you're vastly experienced, have a plethora of experience, I'm gonna say. That's a good word. It is a good word, isn't it? I was the right word. In this podcast, I often put in words, and then I'm I'm it's sort of coming out of my mouth and thinking, do I know that? Do I remember when I looked that up and learned it? Who taught me that word? Do I um uh and that's one of the reasons why um I so very much wanted to have a podcast just with yourself, because I think you're quite unique in the extent of experience and this sort of composition within education situation. So, in that vast experience of working with different age groups, different musical abilities in adverted commas, different schools, different areas, different types of projects, even you know, be it from uh something that's very much uh school-centric to something that's out of school to something that's with an orchestra. What what are John's sort of key observations um from a music education perspective of of what's working and what perhaps isn't working?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I guess that you could probably divide that question into three. I think there's a political angle to that question, and there's also a a pure educational angle to that question, and then there's an artistic angle to that question. So um I don't know, we can start with the political first if you want. We can do it them in the world.
SPEAKER_01That's that's more exciting, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Let's be honest. Let's let's let's hit in there then. The first thing to say about about politics and education is that you know if you if you if you work in lots of different schools uh or have worked in lots of different schools, and you you find that they're not all the same, and they don't people in different it may sound obvious, but it's worth it's worth saying anyway, that people in different areas and different um contexts don't have the same opportunities. So, you know, you can go into a school like Winchester College, which is quite near where I live, which is a private school, one of the top private schools, and you will see their music department probably better equipped than most music conservatoires. You know, those Steinways everywhere and um recital rooms and practice rooms for the kids that that really are in better nick than a lot of the conservatoire practice rooms. Um, and then you'll go into a secondary school somewhere else, and they might not have anything there. Um also within that um within those schools, they might have different a different emphasis, so different the curriculum can be delivered in different ways. So you might have some schools which are very technology biased, so you'll you'll just have a whole load of keyboards. Um you might have I've been to one school where their main thing was steel steel pans, so that that they thought that was probably the best way forward for them. So they that so you you have all these different kinds of aesthetics.
SPEAKER_01Um that's that's kind of I mean you you said it, I think you said it was almost obvious to sort of say, but actually you just putting it there in front of me right now feels quite poignant, and it's kind of weird um and shocking, isn't it? Even if you remove the sort of economic or political bit of it, that a child's musical opportunity is down to a uh luck in so many situations. Not necessarily because at this school they've got you know Steinwave being used as coffee tables, but actually because at this school we're just really totally focused on computer stuff, and and I don't I don't that doesn't really resonate with me, so I I'm not gonna get into music. That's kind of kind of weird, um shocking almost, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00I suppose. And you I've been to some schools where there's nothing. I mean there's there's just nothing there, you know, there's no pianos, there's there's there are a few, you know, really old keyboard, you know, keyboards that don't sound very good, a few broken percussion instruments, and it's you know, there are some schools where music isn't valued at all. And there are lots of schools through through political through political pressure who've had music taken off the curriculum altogether, uh, you know, um especially for A-level, which is which is fast disappearing. Um, along with that, lots of other subjects I might add, you know, like DT, I think has has gone in some schools because it's quite expensive, versus versus you know the benefit that they perceive. And that these things are quite ironic to me, because uh I'm sure to lots of people who'll be listening to this, in in that, you know, those are two things that this country is well known for, is is their music um and their product design. So it it's bizarre, but it's true, and it's it is actually really shocking when you if you if you compare some of the some of those those schools, you know, some of the some of the well-provisioned schools with some of the less well provisioned schools, it's like a it's a different experience. There's no there's no um you know it's a different opportunity completely. It's it's two-tiered really the opportunity for kids.
SPEAKER_01Do you think that directly has a profound effect on um students' outlook, bearing in mind that actually now we live in a world where schools from what worldly knowledge they offer is almost becoming slightly less relevant when so much information is available for free and out of choice of looking it up online.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm kind of asking you, is it has YouTube basically removed the point of a music department? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00Well, no, I don't think it I I you know I don't think it has. I don't think YouTube can really replace a vibrant, I mean I think it has its place, you know, and I think um technology does have its place, and I think teaching on Zoom has its place, but I don't think you can really replace um working together with other people when when you're talking about music making. Um and I and I think you know that I that's just one that's just that's one aspect. I mean we can go into the edge, you know, which if we're talking about differences in schools, we can go on to talk about the educ the education itself, um which also varies a lot. But essentially, because uh educ the the the sort of ethos of education is is set by universities, I think it's fair to say, um, especially in secondary schools. What you learn in secondary schools as a musician is quite limited, I think.
SPEAKER_01Um do you mean uh just for me to understand that, do you mean that because schools are trying to train students who then go to university, so therefore they're sort of jumping through the hoop set by the uni, right?
SPEAKER_00They're they're they're teaching students to pass exams so that they can go to university and um and connect with the curriculum that's happening there. That is changing slowly slowly in higher education, but I I think I mean that's my observation, I don't know if that's true, but I think essentially the agenda for education in secondary schools, especially primary is a bit more open, but secondary schools is very much set by universities um by default. So what what I think what happens in music education is that you know if you look at the A-level syllabus, it k it filters down. So you go from university to A levels, uh, and then you you look at what you need to know, and that's it's better than when I was a kid, uh, but I think it's still very much uh uh a model where things need to be marked right or wrong. So you're you're you're dealing with models that have been developed for that purpose, um, like Bart Chorales, Hide and String Quartets, and and analyzing things in retrospect uh in a certain way so that you can get a mark that's right or wrong. What they're not really teaching is knowledge which gives which which are tools for creativity. So you're you're often looking at things um in retrospect. Then you're not being taught tools to be able to improvise, to be able to compose, um, to explore composition. There is a composition element in in the in the course, but I think um again the criteria that are being that are the marking criteria sets how those compositions need to be. So I think in a way, I suppose what what what I would say at the end of all those all of that is that I don't really believe in education on one level because I don't think I think you know exploring music, that's you know, that's a bit of a facetious comment, because I I really do believe in education because I've been an eternal student and been on many, many postgraduate courses and and I love studying. But what I'm trying to say is that uh what am I trying to say? I'm trying to say that um marking things right or wrong, you know, if you want to talk think of it in a crass way, is not necessarily the best way to think about exploring a subject.
SPEAKER_01So so how can you know how can uh music in schools exist without doing that? Because that's that's how all subjects function, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Well I think yes, yes, but I think you you could you could you could change certain things, you could work towards a more portfolio um presentation of of your work. So in the end, doesn't someone still have to validate it and say they do, but it it could be a much more fine art version of how you assess something, so that it could be working towards this is the idea, and how successful was I uh at achieving that idea. You could you could have that approach, for example. So you you know, you could I'm just I'm slightly talking off the top of my head, I haven't thought about this very deeply, Chris. Um, but I I am actually, yeah, I'm actually strike that from the record. Um have thought about it quite deeply. I'm an expert in it. Yeah, I'm an expert. No, actually, thinking about it, I have thought about it quite deeply, and I think you could you could have a more portfolio approach to uh presenting work, and I think you can I think universities, some universities are working towards that in higher education where you you know that is taken into account, but you still need your, you know, to get to the the the the sort of you know this is another issue, the hierarchy of universities. But let's say you want to get to a top university, perhaps you're that way inclined, and you want to really study with the most interesting composers and everything else. Um you still need your three A's or whatever whatever the requirement is to get there. Wouldn't it be much better if you if you were judged on, you know, the portfolio of work that you'd created over that, over that, over the seven years you'd been at secondary school. I mean, I think that would be a much that would be a much better reflection. I mean you could you could judge it technically if you wanted to, you could, but you could also, much more importantly, you could judge the effective use of creative tools. And I think, you know, you could teach tools for creativity. And I'm not just talking about airy-fairy ideas of tools for creativity, like, oh yeah, I want to put I want to create a sunset. How effective were you at doing that? I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about, you know, real tools uh for improvisation, like, you know, this rather than saying looking back at something and saying, oh, that was a dominant chord and that was a tonic chord, thinking, well, this is how you make a dominant chord, this is how you make a tonic chord. This is an A, so it could be the third of F sharp minor, or it could be the third of F major, or it could be the ninth of G minor, or it could be, you know, do you see what I mean? It's it's kind of that's not the how music's taught. You're you're not taught to to think I've thought of this melody, how can I contextualize this melody? How can I, how can I um, you know, that and people people do it, but they do it, they slightly fumble around. I've just said, you know, they slightly fumble around at how you put a composition together. And and I think you know, composition is a good place to start if we're talking thinking about how to teach and understand how music works.
SPEAKER_01I'm I'm particularly excited by the fact you're talking about how creativity should be taught in schools, but you've you've used the the phrase, you know, I'm not talking about airy fairy ideas. Um I think that's that's because I I don't know.
SPEAKER_00You know what I mean though, Chris.
SPEAKER_01I I I do, I do, but then at the same time, you know, or or for example, then you know, you sort of talk about fumbling around making a composition. Now, funnily enough, John, when I'm composing, I would probably say that I'm you know I'm sat with my guitar or my computer with full of airy fairy ideas fumbling around, you know, and I and I so you all are Chris, and we all are, and I know that feeling.
SPEAKER_00In fact, that's that that I enjoy that feeling of fumbling around, looking at a blank sheet of paper and waiting for that excitement of making something, and we are fumbling around, but you're not fumbling around in the dark, are you? That's the point.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, but then it's in some ways, in some ways I try to put myself in the dark. I think we've talked about tuning guitar differently, for example, to try and mean that everything is in a different place, so I'm having to sort of find my way again, so I'm finding a different route.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but but but still you're you're making a lot of your your your baseline of technical expertise is quite high, both in performance and in composition.
SPEAKER_01So, you know, you can win me over with compliments, by the way.
SPEAKER_00That will that's right. Well it's true. I mean, you know, you you you're you have a whole a whole baseline of um you know playing in time, playing with a groove, playing. You know, playing you've got a whole you've got a whole set of reference points from different kinds of music which you're drawing on. Um and you're fumbling around in that context. So, you know, of course. Analysis has its place. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that I don't think kids are taught cre tools for creativity as as the primary primary piece of educational information. By the way, I don't think teaching calls for tools for creativity is the primary reason for playing music or getting involved with music, but we can come to that later if you like. But the but this say that again, sorry. No, I don't think I mean I'm talking about these as educational, you know, things that can be marked and are useful for creativity and help you not fumble around in the dark, if you like. So I think, you know, that's what we're talking about. And I think I've seen a lot of kids fumbling around in the dark when they're when they're trying to make something. You know, they have they have no reference points. And and it's very interesting when when you go around schools, and I often I try and talk to kids about I'm I'm specifically talking about teenagers at the moment, but if you talk to kids about what they listen to, uh I felt I think it's quite interesting that nine times out of ten, not always, but nine times out of ten, even though we live in the era of Spotify and Apple Music, um, most kids will be listening to what's coming out of the TV. You know, that's what they'll type into the search bar. Um, and and that has a that has a knock-on effect so that everybody else is listening to that, and then that's what they talk about, and that's what their peer group listens to. And then, you know, you have slightly more underground versions of that, but you don't get many kids listening to uh Mongolian throat singing or uh, you know, or or Indian classical music or um, you know, or Bulgarian female choirs. Um, you get a few, but not many. So uh the reference points, you know, especially now as pop music has become such a homogenous um it's kind of got a real homogeneous sense about it, you know, the the the stylistic barriers between indie music and funk and all those things have become much more homogenous than they used to be in, say, the early 70s, um, arguably, but I would I would put that forward as a as a as a thing, you know. Um, you know, there's all sorts of autotunes going on routinely. So the music you're hearing, you know, the most of the drums are programmed. It you're hearing a uh quite a homogenous aesthetic coming out of the TV and the radio, and that's what the reference points are. So um I just went off on one then, didn't I? That's great. Homogenous uh sounds that come out the out of media. But um this all plays into the whole the whole thing about education, expanding reference points, teaching tools for creativity, uh, as opposed to just analytical tools. Um and again, I'm not dissing analytical tools, and I'm not dissing dissing teachers, and I'm not dissing uh anybody who works in education because I think it's all good, you know. I'm just saying that I think it's amazing that you can come out of even higher education and not have a clue really how to improvise or or compose something, because um you know you might have a kind of basic idea of how to do it, but you you I don't see why you shouldn't be able to do that. Why it's not it's not rocket science, really.
SPEAKER_01Okay, we we need to draw to a close, John, really. Yeah. So you know, this is um I feel like we're ending a meeting or something, but you know, any other business.
SPEAKER_00Um and well, I'd just like to return to the what to what I was talking about, the whole point of music making, really, for me. Yeah. Go for it, go for it. Yeah, I mean, I think this is another this does uh this does relate to education, um, in that a lot of education is seen in the context of getting a good mark. I'm not saying all teachers think about music like this, I'm I'm saying that this is the the top-down, university-down model. It and it happens with associated board exams and to uh and trinity exams and and exams in general, is that is that you know it's all about getting a good grade, moving on to the next step. But actually, I think music making, and this you know relates to philosophy, is is really about well-being, it's about community well-being and it's about personal well-being. And actually, making music comes from a sense of excitement and being in the moment, which is a big part of well-being, I think. It doesn't have to be music, you know, people can run if they want to feel feel well, but it's to have music in your life is a great thing to have, and I think that needs to be the primary, you know, it it it's it's not about the kind of X factor model of um, you know, smashing it or this, that, and the other. It's about making stuff, being creative, having transferable creative skills, and just feeling good about it and having having that practice in yourself or that opportunity for practice, if you're that way inclined, as a as a as a as a tool for well-being. And also that extends to communities, you know, which with the demise of the church, you know, um, this isn't about the about what I think about the church or anything. This is just a fact that we used to all come and sing together, you know, on a Sunday years ago, and that's kind of gone from our society. So we don't have that many community opportunities to come together and express music as a as a as a a way of being in the same space together, as as you know, as a place where we can feel that sense of of well-being, community well-being. And in general, I think music has it, you know, reflects the sort of um extreme well, the capitalism that, you know, the capitalist society that we're in. Um I'm not talking about my thoughts on capitalism or socialism, I'm just I'm just saying that generally music is predominantly used to sell stuff in our culture, and it's and it's it's generally perceived as you know, how far up the scale you are. It's perceived in a hierarchical way, how good you are. Whereas really music I think has so much more potential for health, for community, um, for storytelling. You know, I'm not saying some of these things don't exist, I'm just saying the emphasis isn't on on on those things, you know, and on personal well-being. And and I think that's that's really important. It you know, it's it's it's not, you know, there are different and it actually does affect productivity if you want to look at it in that way, in the end, because you know, if you've got a society that is full of well-being, they're gonna be a lot more productive anyway, no matter what their job is or what they do. And if they have music in their life, that can be part of that.
SPEAKER_01That's beautiful. How how do they do that? I mean, we're supposed to be ending, but I think this is good. So where where um how do uh schools and educational institutions then move towards delivering music as a uh music for joy, if you like, music for living. How do they move towards that rather than music to be, you know, better than the other person?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think there's an equ there's you know, and I I there are some schools where this ethos takes place. You can often tell because when you get to a school, you can often tell a lot by school by their tea policy. Oh man, this is brilliant! That's another issue, that's a whole nother podcast. No, no, I think I think you need to lay it out there, don't you? Go on. Yeah, no, uh that's slightly glib comment, but you know, you go to some schools and everybody's got their named cup and you can't touch anything. Uh-huh. You go to other schools, any cup, would you like a cup of tea? Uh-huh. You know, welcome, you know. Um, and that obviously that can be done in other ways, but I have noticed there is a uh there is a vague correlation between the tea policy and and the ongoing and the ethos in the school. I may have got that wrong. That's the no that's not based on risk on anything but anecdotal research.
SPEAKER_01John, I I feel we want to hone in on this because I completely agree. I think tea, well, tea is a ritualistic thing, anyway, isn't it? You know, across a humongous amount of global culture, just you know, this sort of sitting and having an offering a cup of tea. And it same gigs, isn't it? You know, I've I've I I I remember, and in fact, is this Winchester? I think it was Winchester, a gig in a in a venue that shall not be named. And at the time I was living in the West Country, so I'd driven hundreds of miles um to play, and I went to the bar and I didn't even ask for a beer. I said, Can I have a cup of tea, please? And they said, Yeah, sure. And then they said, Oh, uh, yeah, uh, you get a staff discount, so it's like £1.20, please. And I just, you know, you just you know that this is going to be a bad time because this is sort of the way that you this is the ethos that of how they're operating. And in schools, it's always it's it's so similar, isn't it? We go in and if the teacher, if the teacher actually has time to to welcome in a practitioner and to sort of connect with them and offer them a cup of tea, or if they don't have time, because they're just so sort of overworked, possibly underappreciated, yeah, that we're just everyone's in defence mode. It's a real thing, isn't it? Tea is very telling.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a kind of symptom, I think it can be a symptomatic um tell, if you like, because you you're right, it's it won't won't be that those people in that institution are necessarily not welcoming people, but that you know, I think often often schools uh do carry an ethos, often from the head, actually, where you you know I've been I've worked I worked in one I did projects in one school where um they had one head and then I went there a year or two later, they had no head because they couldn't find one, and then I went and you know a couple of years later they had a different head, and the school was completely different every time, often because I think staff a certain amount of staff leave and get replaced as well. Um but the ethos changes, you know. You so you you might go to one school and like I say, it's not it's not that you it's you you just don't feel welcome in the in the staff room, you know. You feel like um there's the you know there's there are no cups to actually have a cup of tea out of. You don't know where the tea is. Um nobody's offered any tea. Um and and then you go to other other other schools and it's like yeah, any cup, here's the tea, here's the milk. Do you want a biscuit? Or you know, there are all there are biscuits on the table. Um and you know, and I think it it it it's often very related to other parts of the ethos in the school. Um yeah, it's very it's interesting, it's just it's just something I've noticed.
SPEAKER_01Maybe we're getting a little bit too hung up on it. I mean, now we're talking about biscuits that are definitely into my territory.
SPEAKER_00Um but and then we're talking about the quality of the biscuit, you know, it could be could be a digestive, but some schools, yeah, you know, you can be having chocolate biscuits there.
SPEAKER_01But I guess we're too we're talking about human things, aren't we? And if you're talking about sort of music making and essentially you know, you're you're talking about music as this well-being uh way of getting together and celebrating. And if you want that to be an ethos, but you can't even offer someone a cup of tea, um then you're probably missing something else there, aren't you? Really?
SPEAKER_00That's the Yes. As a message, absolutely. I mean, there are all sorts of other things about working in schools, and that again is another pod podcast um for another time. But uh yeah, all sorts of yeah, you know, there are loads of things about about the approach to working with with with children, um, and how the adults in charge of those children um respond to you being there. Um often, say for example, a really good teacher will just join in with a session, and then other teachers, for for whatever reason, sometimes because they they're so so overworked, you know, um, or sometimes because they're not interested, or and they, you know, it's a slight inconvenience because they've got so much pressure on them to teach core subjects. Um and you know it, you know, a good teacher will join in with a session and then and and and the kids see that and they see that the teacher is valuing that, um, and they see the uh they can see you know it helps with the whole the whole session really, helps them trust the session and everything else. And then you'll get some teachers will who will literally talk all the way through the session, they'll not only not only be there um and and not join in, but they will actually distract the children by talking to somebody else through the whole session. Uh so you know these things are are are tells, and and I think often actually that is because with music, you know, some people are are themselves intimidated by the subject, and and because of the way they've been taught music, they haven't been taught that it's a safe space to be in. They've they've been taught much more with the kind of ethos of good or bad. That I can't I've you you know, we've all talked spoken to adults where they where they say, I can't, I can't, I'm no good at music, you know, I can't sing. Um, because they think singing is is is singing like Aretha Franklin, and that to have the right to sing you need to be a brilliant a brilliant artist like that. But um it's not about that. Singing is just about um, you know, I'm not a particular good singer, but I sing all the time in sessions because it's about expressing your your intention and expressing how how you want things to go. It's about you know body language and how music is a visceral, emotional, human thing. It's not a it's not a sort of um dry subject in that way. It's a in it's it's an example-led subject.
SPEAKER_01Do you think sometimes there's a clash between um you know musicians and music educators who are very connected to music and maybe understand music in a way that they're not intimidated by it and it's just part of their life? And then the educators who, as you say, are just completely it's completely alien to them, they might be intimidated by it, they might be, you know, even worse, genuinely quite triggered by it from a sort of aw, a terrible emotional experience. And they're the people who are then sort of planning the the curriculums and the you know the culture of the school.
SPEAKER_00I think it varies hugely, you know, uh i across the board, but I would say, because at one point I, you know, I'm I'm very interested in education, and I've I've I've been in education a lot myself, as well as done a lot of teaching over the years in various contexts. Um, and so at one point I was I was considering becoming a class teacher, and I looked into it, um, and uh what I found was that it was actually quite hard, although I was quite a skilled musician at the time, I was in my mid-30s and I've already been working as a professional all my adult life. Um it it wasn't it was a lot harder for me to become a music teacher because because in those days I hadn't had a I hadn't actually got a first degree because I've gone to a music conservatoire, and in those days they didn't give you a degree. I think they do now, so it's easier, but it was it was harder for me to become a music teacher than it would be for somebody who had no musical experience to become a music teacher. That's interesting. Um like just the progression through the system to become that, and I and I and I think in general, through no fault of their own, I think schools are so preoccupied with assessment um because they have to, you know, they've been again from a top-down position. Um I think there are loads of teachers who would love not to spend so much time on assessment, but there's so much time spent on assessment that you're that you know you're not that's an important skill as a teacher, you know, it's a kind of stock-taking exercise in a way, um especially in primary schools. I think I've seen that quite a lot, that the music teacher or coordinator, this isn't I'm not having a go at teachers, I just want to make that really clear, you know, because I just think it's just the culture of of of education that you know you get some wonderful music teachers in primary schools and secondary schools who don't who who are very skilled and um but it's not across the board, and again that that comes back down to the equal opportunities and the and and which are which are which are created, you know, which are created by the ethos behind it, really. Um it is possible to be a music teacher and never sing a note, uh, and to never play a note, and to, you know, say this is a minimum and it's two beats long. Uh and have that approach rather than actually making music, having the confidence to make music, to sing a song, to play the piano so that you can or play a guitar whilst you're singing a song, so you can whilst you're learning a song, so you can stop and start, so you can work in an organic way. Those skills to an to a degree aren't, you know, they're not universal. Again, I've forgotten the original question.
SPEAKER_01That's great, that's fine. That's fine. That's fine. Um, John, it's been a pleasure. Let's finish up with one final question that hopefully you're going to be able to uh condense into a quote for me to use probably on social media afterwards. What do you think? What's uh John K. Miles's vision? Um, not necessarily what you want it to be, but what do you think is gonna happen to music education um over the next five years? What do you think we're gonna see?
SPEAKER_00Well, I can tell you my hopes and then I can tell me your hopes and dreams. My hopes and dreams. Well, I would hope it I I would hope it becomes a subject where where um people are taught technical and fine art skills for creating music um through through the act of being creative, through a creative approach. So um and and I and I would love to see the value um that the value of that recognised as uh along along with well-being um uh as as a great reason to s to have music on the curriculum and and to recognise that it's an important part not just of of a personal curriculum but also of the community curriculum of a school, so that music is you know is part of that school community, which is another thing which has slightly died off, where music is a real big part of the expression of that school community. Um you know, one of many different ones, but uh an important component in that. Uh, you know, I'd like I mean I'd just like to see a society where not everything was about productivity in the sense of selling stuff really. I would I would like us to be creating a society where um things like well-being, community, looking after each other, working together, um are promoted as the primary primary values of a society, equality, um all those kinds of things, which I think you can use you know, music can play a uh uh is a really powerful tool and a really po uh can be a really powerful component of of that that kind of aim, that societal aim.
SPEAKER_01Brilliant.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, John. Thanks so much. Thanks so much, Chris. It's been a pleasure talking to you.