The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 58 - ‘The Journey Home - Home Education Pt2' Will Savage and Nerys Williams
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This episode has an accompanying article in Music Teacher Magazine, our media partner. Head to https://www.musicteachermagazine.co.uk to read it. Thank you to our Sponsor Faber Music. Visit https://www.fabermusic.com/education and use Podcast1 at the check out for money off. This podcast is brought to you by Soundstorm. Check out Will's Classes here...https://www.facebook.com/willsavagemusic
Welcome to the Music Education Podcast. I'm Chris of the Chris Woods Groove Orchestra, and this podcast is brought to you by the Sandstorm Music Education Hub and our sponsor, FabreMusic. Now, as a listener of our podcast, you are welcome to 20% of Favour Music titles. Simply head to Fabermusic.com forward slash education and use the code podcast1 in the checkout. This episode has an accompanying article in Music Teacher Magazine, which you can read by heading to musicteacher magazine.co.uk. Now the subject of this article and this episode is home education. Now this is in fact part two of our series about home education, but you don't have to listen to part one at all. In fact, I'm not even quite sure why we're calling this part two. But anyway, it's a really, really fascinating listen and an added bonus, we have two guests in this episode that I chat to. First off, I speak to Will Savage, who was home educated himself and is now a musician and music educator working with home educating families. And I also speak to Neris Williams, who is a home educating parent. There's so much to take from both these conversations for all types of music educators. I hope you enjoy listening. Will thank you so much for joining me this afternoon. Can we start off with uh who you are and what you do?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, thanks for having me on. Um, so I am a piano teacher, I have been for 15 years or so, um, and I've also taught music in a local independent school uh for quite a number of years. Uh age range about four to seven, so quite a young, lively class. Um I was home educated myself, actually, so I have kind of a perspective on the whole thing. Um and I also run online music webinars or online music lessons essentially, um, as classes. I did it about 18 months ago via Facebook Live, and it was growing really quickly. It was yeah, fantastic in so many ways. Um there were some snags with the technical, with the platform that I was using, Facebook, without wanting to be too negative about Facebook. It um it was challenging, let's just say. Um and I had we had our first baby, we moved house, there's just a lot going on. So I had to kind of hit pause um in spring of 2022, last year. Um but it was such a such a kind of a great success, if I can say so, that I thought, you know, I must get back to that, I really must get back to that. But um, but how? And I think I've worked out how. So um as we're speaking now, it's tomorrow, we're starting our first last back. We're gonna use Zoom webinars um as a different platform, and um yeah, kind of super excited. So they're the lessons that are geared toward uh home educated children. Um and at the moment I'm kind of pitching them mostly, fair fairly broad age range of about 7 to 12. Um, and in my head I'm thinking key stage one, key stage two plus, but I I'm not strictly keeping to the curriculum. Obviously, I'm adapting to the platform. And um yeah, I've had a really great uptake so far, so I'm super excited. We've got quite a quite a lot of people signed up for our first lesson tomorrow. So um talk to me tomorrow and I'll let you know how it went.
SPEAKER_03Great, great. Well, I mean it that'd be really interesting to hear about preparing for like a home ed session and what or even advertising to a home ed group and or home ed communities. But I think the place that I want to start really is your personal experience of being home educated. For example, the logistical elements of how long that was for and yeah, how you found it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, um, so it was really my my whole life, you know, it wasn't a a period of my life. I know some have had that, but it was right from the get-go. I'm the youngest of four. Um, so I like to think they kind of sorted it out by the time I came along. Oh well, your other siblings could say completely insane. That's right, yeah. I I won't give you their names. Um they're they're fairly well adjusted. But um, yeah, I think you do look back and you reflect on it and you think of your own experience, and it's um it's hard to compare. You know, you can't have a parallel universe and think, well, what would I have become if I had gone to a state school or an independent school? But I look back and I think my parents, they both took a share in the teaching. Uh my dad's work was was quite flexible, so he was actually able to teach as well, which I think was was great actually, because they both have their strengths. Um, my mum's more for kind of humanities, art, language, that kind of thing. My dad more sciences and maths. Um, music, interestingly, was kind of neither of them, and which is why I'll come on to that in a second. Um, but I think, yeah, fundamentally they loved us as kids, you know, as any parent would, and they loved their subjects that they taught. And I I think that that stuck with me. That gave me the best of starts. Um I think it's important to love your subject and the people that you're trying to help, trying to teach. Um, it was quite structured. I know from talking to lots of home educated families since, there's quite a bandwidth, I think I would say, on approach to home education. Um so I think my parents fell more towards the uh structured end of things.
SPEAKER_03Um they're more sort of homeschooling rather than what has been come up in these conversations is like even unschooling and that sort of that's right.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um, you know, I mean we we you know we we had lots of time in nature, we had a b a nice garden which we'd be playing in, and I think it was a good uh from that point of view, you weren't just kind of behind the desk the whole time. Um but in terms of timetables and you know structures and yeah, it was there. And um I'm I'm not here to cast judgment on other ways of doing it, but I think for me it worked quite well. I think it helps when it comes to, you know, the time of life when you look at qualifications and things, you you're more aligned with that, I would say.
SPEAKER_03Did you do GCSE's NA levels with your okay?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that was a bit tricky actually to to kind of because to actually as an independent person to to link up with a with an examining body is is is a challenge. So we had to there was a National Extension College, NEC, that was one of the programs that we use. I don't know if they're still around actually, but they would send course materials out and and all that kind of thing. We I think I'd be assigned a tutor nominally anyway, that if I could ask if I needed to any questions. But the main thing we did that for was just to get linked up with a local school so that we could then take the exam. Um and I think later in my late yeah, my teens, I'd do kind of evening classes for the same reason, really, to get the get the qualifications at the end. So I think that's that was a challenging thing for my parents. It wasn't so much for me because it wasn't my responsibility, but um yeah, that's the way they they did it.
SPEAKER_03And could I ask, just in setting this up to the other homeschooling uh parents that I'd spoken to and talking about that they've opted to let their children choose to do GCSEs, for example, or if they're not, were you given that choice out of interest, or was it sort of structured again and here we go, this is what we're doing.
SPEAKER_04Um I don't think it was no, I don't think it was really a choice. I mean it wasn't forced upon us. Um I think we were definitely in the passenger seat, but maybe not the driving seat. Yeah, and then we kind of see where we were going and we had input. But I think um yeah, that was it was kind of set up for us. Um and they tried to, I think, get the I I don't like to use the terminology, but core subjects, you know, that that might be looked at for employers, maths, sciences. I know you and I would probably argue that music should be there as well. But um but I think those things were high on their list of priorities. Got to get make sure, you know, maths A level or GCSE or whatever, um and um your language and sciences and things. So we didn't have a Bunsen burner, which still to this day is like a family joke. Like, oh, we're not that well adjusted because we never had a Bunsen burner at home. You know, we missed out the list of the bigger.
SPEAKER_03That's a very important cultural artifact there that you've missed out, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Burning each other's hair and all sorts of yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's probably affected by your interaction with you know people throughout the world.
SPEAKER_04I know, yeah. Yeah, yeah. My wife went to school and I I do feel like there is this kind of just this sticking point that she is familiar with a Bunsen burner.
SPEAKER_03Sometimes an awkward silence comes over dinner and she's making jokes about Bunsen burners. It's a distant bist of gas. I mean Wow. Um it's interesting, so uh maybe it's more nuanced than than student-led or child-led and adult-led. It seems that maybe it was a little bit different from school where do your GCSEs, do well, or life will be ruined. Um you know, I it it's somewhere in between the two, I guess. A bit of a s a continuum.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think so. I think um yeah, I've got a lot of respect for my parents and the way they did it, and you know, nobody's perfect, um, but I think we I think it was a good happy medium. Yeah, I really feel like and we came out um not I I d I d I do remember distinctly, you know, because we had lots of friends our age who were in school and and the the feeling of stress that I would pick up off them having like umpt teen GCSEs, many of which now they may just have forgotten most of the subjects that they were studying. And um and I yeah, to be able to focus on things that either we felt were quite practical or things that we were loving and enjoying, that was really liberating. We obviously would cover the you know a lot of material of those other subjects, um, but we may not have had the qualification at the end of it. But I feel like the um the education was very good uh around that subject, if if it makes sense.
SPEAKER_03So so you were able to still lead like I'm really interested in planes, for example, and then you could like double down on that and learn about that. That was sort it's that the kind of route that I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, I think so. Yeah, I would say that was true. Yeah, they made yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay, and what music, so you're obviously a musician. So how did that come about? What's the difference between you being a home educated person and not, you know, in that experience? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Again, I suppose it's hard for me to directly compare with what could have been, but I I mean I can certainly say that because my parents weren't well they would say themselves, they're not musicians, um and their exposure exposure to music was quite limited, I guess. Um but they were modest enough to accept that and outsourced that part of our education. Um so I had music I had uh piano lessons, my brother did too. Um and the input of those teachers, I had a few different teachers along, you know, over the years as most of us have. And I think that was that was really key. I mean they supported us and they helped us, but they were very much the parent that I encounter a lot in my teaching now, who they feel like a little bit um out of their depth, I think. You know, with music, like with music. With music, yeah. And I think that's what's such an interesting thing with doing these classes, you know. I I hear from so much from parents who I think you know, there is some grounds for their feeling that they don't have confidence in music. Maybe they've had almost no exposure to it, and so you can't really have confidence in something that you don't have exposure to. That's true. But also I think one of your other guests I listened to, he said about Kadai. You know, and um how he was obviously one for music education from a young age, and he was asked, wasn't he, when when should music education begin for a child? And I think he probably, you know, with wit, said nine months before their birth. Oh right. And then I think he said actually nine months before the mother's birth. And I thought that's interesting. He said that, you know, it's acknowledging that that musical education it involves the parents um but that we shouldn't be too shy or or lacking confidence in our own ability. It's a skill that can be learned, isn't it? You know that, I know that. Um but I think a lot of parents perhaps hold themselves back more than they should um in kind of engaging with their kids in musical activities. I don't want to generalize, but well we kind we kind of have to, don't we?
SPEAKER_03And we do. So feel feel free, don't worry, it's okay.
SPEAKER_04Um But there's yeah, like a lot, um I think a lot of parents, yeah, they talk to me and they are like, I just they science, they know what to do. Maths, they can find stuff, English, they can do stuff, but music is like a black box. Yeah, like what what is music? You know, what's a what's a D7? I have no idea what a you know, should I like that band or are they awful? You know, is that musically unacceptable? There's a lot of um, I guess, judgment in in music as well, sadly, isn't there? So um I think that does factor into the whole music education thing, and yeah, like I said, I'm not saying all parents, regardless of their musical background, should just plow on and teach their kids whatever they can, because I think it's important to have a trained teacher with experience teaching you know your your children. But I think that education being what it is, music for a long time hasn't perhaps been a core subject, and so now we're what we're seeing now is the after effects of what will happen decades ago, I guess.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um so I mean you you just said there you think it's important for your your child to have a trained teacher for music with them. I mean, that's you just sort of slipped in that bombshell there, Will. Well, so you know, because we're talking about home education, so.
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SPEAKER_03Okay, so the concept of parents maybe should it would be great if parents can feel more confident and engaging with music, but still you think it's crucial to have that music teacher in the in a home ed setting. Because I presume in a state school then you're you would be happy with that because the there's a a teacher teacher there playing that role.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I suppose you know, in a school setting, it that's in itself a it's a massive bandwidth. I'm not gonna go down the rabbit hole of of what that's all like. You get some very good experiences and some that aren't quite as good as you'd want them to be in a school. Um but yeah, I think I think there is something to be said. I mean, I don't think that a home educating family should call in a a music teacher to come to the home necessarily and teach class music. But I think to learn an instrument is well obviously you know they couldn't teach if they can't play the instrument, they can't teach the instrument. So they I think for me I suppose it's my own experience I'm going on quite a lot here, but yeah, I think the piano was was like a was a doorway, really. Um since learn a bit of guitar and and other things, but it you know what it's like, you you learn one instrument and then it it opens your mind to other instruments and you bands and ensembles you play in and you learn about music and so on.
SPEAKER_03So you said the value's in that the parapetic instrument teacher rather than the sort of classroom sort of thing.
SPEAKER_04I think so. I th well I think you know there's value for both, isn't there? I mean, I know I'm kind of uh backing my own horse here in saying, but I think that's why the clo the clo why I'm kind of excited about these classes is because I see them as a as a door opener for kids, and I think that's happened. You know, I I get lots of parents say, Oh, they they just never got along with Zoom lessons of whatever kind, but this one they're just so engaged with it, and they'll just spontaneously be singing a song that they did in the class with you in the house, and and they want to learn an the an instrument now, and like that's cool. That's exactly that's just like a domino effect that that might come from the class. Because I realise, you know, online music lessons they're great for lots of things, but they're not the only answer. Like, I don't think there is an only answer for music education. You need input from various sources, don't you? I've had lots of sources over the years, I'm sure you have too. But I think it's um a stimulant for other musical activities. That's what I'm hoping these these lessons will continue to be.
SPEAKER_03Because it's very interesting, even just the yeah, the online thing, because I imagine that is part of what is behind the growth in home educating, because there is this access. Well, if I felt underconfident in music, well, I do feel underconfident in music sometimes, but um who doesn't I don't show it, but inside. Well, maths, for example, which I am you know rubbish at, but I know that if I was home educating, there will be maths online classes rather than in my local area. I can know that I can access all of this for my child. Is that that must be a big thing in the driving force behind it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, um, you know, I I have students for more for piano and I think for these classes from all around the world, you know. This time zones limit the classes a little bit. If they want to join live, they can watch it back. Um, sorry, recorded, but um, but mostly it's people close to our time zone. But yeah, I've got piano students in China, Mozambique, Germany, and and they don't necessarily have a teacher that uh fits the needs of the student in that area. Um, but by means of online lessons they um they now do, you know. So it's yeah, and interesting you said about confidence, it just made me think later in I think it's the last is it the last one? Yeah, I think it's the last lesson I'm doing in June. It's about Tchaikovsky. Um, you know, Tchaikovsky's seasons. Uh and obviously it's about June. But I didn't I didn't I I didn't realise the backstory of those pieces until I started to prepare the lesson. And evidently um he was he was writing it on request of an editor of a Russian monthly magazine. Right. And I've managed to find the wonder of the internet, managed to find correspondence between Tchaikovsky and this editor, uh and like an attached note with one of his monthly compositions, because obviously it would go for each month of the magazine he produced June, July, August, whatever. And um, I don't know which month it was for, I think it's in my lesson notes, but um he has this most self-deprecating kind of monologue of self-doubt. It's ridiculous. I I don't know if it's good enough, and and you know, please tell me if you need me to make adjustments and all these, all translated from Russian. And I thought that is so good to read, you know. Here's Tchaikovsky, who's enshrined as one of the greats uh in in classic Western classical music, and yet he in his day was was really probably like us, you know. And I I'm gonna feature that in the lesson. Um, I shouldn't give away too much in case any of the kids are what listening to this, but yeah, I think that's the point. We all feel like we're not up too much sometimes in the moment, but um but that doesn't mean that we couldn't be the next Tchaikovsky. Yeah. Sorry, I think I interrupted your flow. Carry on.
SPEAKER_03That's great. You can interrupt it with stuff like that. That's really interesting. Um yeah, okay, cool. So it's been it's really great to hear you know your your experience as a as a home educator, and I'm very interested by the and I'm afraid I ain't gonna ask you to to generalize here, but really to be able to have the conversation, we have to be able to do that. But obviously, we've just recognized. That it's limited, but what sort of feedback do you get from uh parents who are uh you know booking into this session that you're about to do, or or that you know just in in wider experience? Because I imagine I'm gonna take a guess at you have more friends who are linked to home educate uh home education than someone who hasn't been brought up in home education. What what do you think are the big driving forces to go? We're not gonna go to state school or prep school or steiner school or any of this, we're gonna home educate. And do you think music is an element of that ever or is you know, because it's music just in school, oh it's rubbish, let's do it at home, or do you think it's something to do with you know more other things?
SPEAKER_04I think it's my experience says it's mmm generally other things. I I I don't think that music is I don't think it's the driving force. My experience would be that if if there was that driving force, look, you know, we're not content with the music education that we're currently receiving, they would probably manoeuvre their life to be in one of the music schools you know, that's renowned nationally.
SPEAKER_03I think that's been my experience Or bring in all the big guns on the tutor side of things, and yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, that's right. Position themselves, you know, go to one of the big cities where they've got conservatoires and kind of attach to that. That's been my experience. Um but so I think I think this comes in more as although although it isn't the the reason for leaving the school system, I think that it's um it's the Achilles heel, one of one of the Achilles Hill. I don't know, you can't have one of the Achilles Hill, can you? You have to have one or none. Let's just say it's the Achilles heel of home educating, because it's like it is like we said this black box. And there's some will just will just hope that that's not a big deal, but some I think are very conscious of trying to find. I had somebody who when they heard I was going back to the lessons, said, Oh, fantastic! I got you know, so excited. All the kids are really excited. Because since last I'm not blowing my own trumpet here, I'm just trying to give context for the situation in music lessons. They said they've tried, you know, different uh online music lessons and they just haven't engaged with them and they they feel the lack. There's a bit of a do I say dearth of of you know quality music education, but I think that's that's the feedback I'm getting from a few, and it may not be representative of everybody, but um I think it's uh you know, I mean we're we're living in the world of AI-generated music and pop songs that are just who knows who made them and who edited them, and musical talent is this murky, mysterious thing. Um, things that sound good. Is there musical talent behind what sounds good? Uh, you know, on the radio, and the kids kind of consume music like they consume TikTok videos. Do we just stop and think about what what is music and why is it important and how can it help our mental health and all those other things? I think you need to kind of stop and have a more personal element to um lessons. I've completely gone off your question there, haven't I?
SPEAKER_03You did it a little bit, but I but I like that as well. Um so and I'm I mean that's gonna end up a quote in the article, that music is the a killer's heel of um home education. Because I I I guess I came into these conversations thinking that it would be oh yeah, well, we don't we would we took them out of state school and we're home educating because you know they can access music and um a much better uh you know it being a main thing. But it seems in the conversations that I've had up to this point, it seems to be more about an overall philosophy of choice, maybe taking away pressure from mental health. That seems to be something that gets mentioned a lot, and then to hear this from you that yeah, music, then parents are left unable to really know what to do because yeah, it's so different, isn't it? Because even if you're if like me, you're rubbish at maths, it seems so much more tangible to go and find that information to provide to your your child and go, here you go, well, this is what I've got off the internet. Whereas when it comes to music, yeah, it's seen as some kind of magical thing. Um, how do you how do you deliver it? It's that mystery again, isn't it?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. And I think you mentioned um about uh your mental health, and I think your SN is hard not to bring that up as well. And I think I I think that's one of the things that has led some families to to choose home education because of special educational needs. Um and for me, I I think although I'm ostensibly I'm not gearing these lessons to that um kind of subset as you uh uh uh if if it were of the community. I I do think music is one of those it's a language, isn't it? We know it's a language. And I think for certain children who who have who have special educational needs, communication is is one of the challenges. I think it's not always the case, but it's what I've heard a lot of is communication is a challenge. And I think music is one of those it's a vocabulary that they can resonate with. Um so I th I I do find I've had quite a lot of uh contact with parents who who say their children have got different um whether they're um well, whatever those special educational needs are, they're very interested in music as a means of I suppose nurturing their strengths really. It's not yeah, it's nurturing their strengths because uh you've probably had experience with those who are who have special educational needs and and that they're phenomenal. In certain areas, they're just phenomenal. And you think, uh, you know, I just wish I could I wish I could approach music in that way. So there's there's there's incredible stuff going on neurologically, perhaps, which I think music is a is an outlet for for children in those situations as well.
SPEAKER_03And do and do you think that's uh a push uh a reason for shifting to home education as well and to even to get rid of um not that I have a problem with saying special education needs, but to to provide the whole spectrum because that's that's a tough thing as well, isn't it? If we talk about special educational needs, well that I mean what where are we with that? But just with if your young person's brain is responding to life in or responding to the way that lessons are taught in schools in a way that isn't favourable, if you like, like they're not getting stuff from it, not because of attitude or application, but actually you can just see that their their mind is responds better to a different set of challenges or surroundings. Do you do you think that's in your experience of what you who you know, that's a driving force of going, you're wired in a way that you're gonna benefit from being out here?
SPEAKER_04I think so. I think it is a yeah, definitely one of the strong reasons I've I've heard a lot how uh yeah, I mean it's and it's no criticism on the school system, you know. I think I I know so many dedicated hardworking teachers in the school system, whether state or independent, and they do everything they can for their whole class, don't they, including those with with um different needs. But you can, you know, a a pie only cuts so many words and they only have so many hours in the day, yeah. And you you can't that's why there's a difference between one-to-one and and class teaching. I know that from doing piano, that the level of detail I can you know, feedback I can give a s a student in a one-to-one lesson is totally different from any kind of group scenario. Um, so I suppose it's just cause and effect, really. Um but I think that is a a big reason that uh many home educated families choose to go that way.
SPEAKER_03Okay. And then we'll what what do you think is uh different in it could be structure, um content or or philosophy to sessions that you're delivering specifically for home education to non-home educated students?
SPEAKER_04Um again, I suppose it's it's not necessarily apples with oranges because it all depends on the school um and what they do. Um I suppose I'm not just like home educated families, I'm not bound no, bound is a negative word, but I'm not um dictated by the national curriculum. I'm obviously aware of the national curriculum and I'm trying to, you know, I don't just blindly ignore it. It's it's important, it's there for a reason, but I think the flexibility that I have, um that would be a point of difference. Um I mean I spread over into different for me. I I I've always tried to split a lesson up in I mean, if it's a 45-minute lesson like it, like it is on a on a Tuesday afternoon, I think of it as three or four 10 or 15-minute segments, 10 or 15-minute lessons within a a a bigger lesson. And I try and include a array of subjects. I mean, we've done things like um uh lyrics. We're gonna look at Ira Gershwin, the lesser-known Ira Gershwin, who was the lyricist for a lot of music that we don't really know much about him. Um, and uh music from around the world, so we kind of look at different cultures and um music from the ages, looking back in history. I mean it's it's tap your feet to notes and beats. I'm just reading down a few lists of things I've got. Sing your socks off. Um yeah, sing your socks off is a funny one. Uh chill with will, that's a bit cheesy. Um but I suppose I kind of think, well, what will what will be if I were that eight, nine, ten, eleven-year-old home educated child, what what would I be most engaged by? Um and align that as closely as I can to the national curriculum. But there are I think there are some things that are just quite challenging to do over a webinar format.
SPEAKER_03Right, right. But but why the national curriculum sort of tying tying back to it? What sort of makes you feel that you you know it's beneficial to do that?
SPEAKER_04I suppose. I mean, partly it's it's time in that, you know, what it's like being a family man, I'm not saying right, I'm gonna make my own national curriculum from this day. It's nice to have something to work from. Um and I, you know, I have a lot of respect for the frameworks that are in place, and I think that if these children are gonna grow to be musicians that can then interact with other musicians in orchestras, ensembles, and bands and whatever, then they don't want to be on a totally separate universe, you know. So I think aligning with that, um that's perhaps one of the reasons to gear up if they ever wanted to go and and do their music A level or degree at uni or whatever, they'd be on some kind of trajectory, you know, to get there. Um but I don't it's not like I I I've I've looked at the curriculum and I understand, but it it's quite it it you know what it's like. It's it's a fairly skeletal thing anyway. So flashing that out to suit it to um online lessons, it does kind of become its own beast, really. No, beast is a negative one, it becomes its own creature.
SPEAKER_03Is is there also, I suppose, uh home educating, if that's about being well, for some families being student-led, then that requires very much a great deal of feedback as well. Whereas delivering things online is about you offering exciting knowledge and inspiration, but actually it's it's online, however you're doing it, is always going to be more of a sort of a one-way thing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, or in a group anyway, at the very least.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. In a in a couple of weeks, we're gonna be doing we're gonna be singing harmonies, um, but each of us in our own location singing harmonies together along with some music. Um so they're gonna feel hopefully part of a group. Um, but I mean I I I did I have tried, I think like many educators have over the over COVID, this Zoom meeting scenario where you've got like 50 50 cameras, um, the potential for 50 children to unmute themselves and put all sorts of emojis on the chat. I mean, what could possibly go wrong there? Um, it does become a bit distracting, I think. So I think this one way is kind of a double-edged sword. Um, but yeah, I mean, feedback-wise, I I get an awful lot from this is one thing I would say about parents in home educating families, they're they're very communicative in general. And so, although I haven't got time to, you know, respond to hundreds of different families, I think the ones that really have something to say, um, they make sure they say it to me. And uh generally it's positive, I'm pleased to say, but for for when it isn't, that's great. I take that and and kind of adapt. So there's feedback. I think one thing that I'm that's going around my mind a lot and I'm interested to kind of develop going forward is how can I how can I kind of add value to the webinar sessions by giving some feedback, you know, by helping the child to know actually, yes, you're on the right track with your singing. Or I mean I have homework sheets that I'll be sending out each week, one of which is an answer page. So for things like that, they can know they're getting things right. Um, but music isn't all about getting things right, of course. So I it's to monitor their progress at the moment, yeah. At the moment, it's whether they might the the parents might record um their child singing something, playing something, you know, creating a rhythm. We're gonna do all sorts of improvising and and compositional stuff. So I'd love for them to share that with me, whether it's via social media and tag me in. I mean, there's a lot of potential um at the moment. I I haven't got the wheels going on that yet, but I think that would be great. And obviously, with you know, sharing things of your children on social media, people have understandable concerns over that. So I need to figure that out carefully. But I think there's real potential to have a bit of a feedback loop, which would help me and the student kind of in equal measure, I think. Hmm. Wonderful. I the school I used to work at for a number of years, they had this Latin motto, um, sempre curiosis, you know, always curious. And I think that's always curious. I think that's that's kind of stays with me. And I think that's if I could sum up what I'm trying to achieve with these lessons, it's to do that, it's to try and encourage curiosity in the children and kind of not to give them a fish, but to teach them how to fish, you know, so they can go off and and embark on all sorts of musical experiences of their own, really. Um so that's I haven't got a kind of a snappy final sentence for this, but uh that would be my call to action would be come on and have a look. £2.50, watch a lesson, see if you like it. Nice. Thank you, thank you so much for your time, Will. No, yeah, thanks every. And um, yeah, Facebook is the only place I hang out really at the moment, so it's Will Savage Music. That's where all the info is. And um this has been fun. Wonderful. I've enjoyed it.
SPEAKER_03Neris, thank you so much for joining me this morning. Can we start off with who you are and as far as home ed and music is concerned, what you do really?
SPEAKER_01Okay, um I well we, me and my partner, Dominick, uh home educate our have home educated our four kids, um and our daughters, the oldest and the youngest child have been involved in music education in different ways. Um the oldest was a self-led learner. Um she decided to learn to play the guitar alone. Um but our youngest um got involved with um more classical instrument and uh she plays viola and we've had to um be more involved with music education through her.
SPEAKER_03Why, I guess, is is the sort of question there.
SPEAKER_01Um Okay, well we we aren't musicians, so we needed to um help her uh find tutors that could help her play the viola. Um and also that her interest is is very much classical music rather than sort of you know something that she could pick up by herself. We needed like outside expertise to to help with that. So that that was kind of a little bit at odds with our understanding of you know the methodology that we developed over the 15 years that we've been, 15, 16 years that we've been home educating, where we allow the kids to be autonomous and self-led.
SPEAKER_03So um and c can I put that into some context for so I'm you know the vast majority of listeners to this will be music educators who probably majoritively work in state or more mainstream. So, you know, does autonomous mean just sure, you can go and run on the motorway if you want, or you know, what's the what's the deal?
SPEAKER_01Well, it it I mean it is controversial for a lot of people because they don't believe that children will choose to learn if they're given the opportunity to do anything. They think that they will just um make really reckless choices, but that hasn't been our experience. Um I mean we've gone through this the the the panic stages as well, where we feel like the kids aren't doing anything, um, especially with our oldest, who was the first going through it, where we had um years of panic where we thought she wasn't doing anything, and um and that is actually why I bought her a guitar, uh, and she spent two years in her room learning how to play the guitar, and then went on to be in our her you know, her own rock group and got to play festivals and like got a massive amount of experience from doing that. But I mean that what wasn't only what she was doing, she was doing a lot of reading. I mean, I could go, I could go into this in like a great amount of depth if you want me to.
SPEAKER_03Hey, depth is great, it's just because even you that little statement there of you say, you know, the vast majority of people would believe that children, young people would make the sort of the wrong choice immediately, like just desperately run away from learning is hugely I mean, we could I maybe I should uh title the podcast that because it just opens up so much, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_01It really I I mean yeah. I mean I can understand the panic because you're taught that children can only learn when they're being taught by someone. And in our experience, that is completely wrong, and actually the best way for them to learn is to do it when they're when they want to learn something, and and there are no limits to what they can learn as well when they can really immerse themselves in something. Um like my oldest daughter was always obsessed with music. You know, we'd we'd come we'd get up in the morning, and when she was three years old, she was trained to type in Bob Dylan, you know, on the computer so she could listen to music. She was completely obsessed with music.
SPEAKER_04So I mean you guys into music, though.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much I think yeah, and but you know, neither of us play an instrument. Dominic is more involved, he he really likes classical music, uh blues more, and I'm more kind of rock folk, I suppose. Um so yeah, she had she did have that sort of breadth to listen to. but she's really you know into rock and folk and um I've lost my train of thought um so so it was always there you know it was a kind of easy thing for her to sort of get involved with music and and she's um she's she's very got very sensitive hearing as well and she's got very good years so she could pick up things very easily and and it was just a really good focus for her for those couple of years and then um I mean she didn't choose to go on to do music she's she's doing um she's doing an art degree she's about to graduate from um oxford so so she's and she's got places then didn't it yeah I mean well that's it that again you know that wasn't us that wasn't that wasn't pushed in any way shape or form she just chose at some point she got the opportunity to visit Oxford with her father and she said oh I think I'd like to go there at which point you know we both fell through the floor because she'd had two GCSEs and she'd done a vocational course she hadn't done A levels um so everything was kind of all the received wisdom was against her even getting a place there it was we were told like it wasn't worth her even going to interview. But how how did that come about in a application process if you don't mind me asking then you know how does it work from a home ed perspective in she privately uh did her GCSEs the English and maths which we did in like a super quick time as well because she decided that she wanted to go to college when she was 16 so she decided in the January and the deadline for the exams was January so it was like had to find a private um centre for her to to be enrolled in and then she had to do the uh curriculum in three months before the exam so 16 completely home educated from birth if you like at seven ah sorry yes okay so came out of state at seven to be home educated could I ask then and that don't worry I know we're going like this but that's cool I like that um what's the fundamental reason for coming out just in a sort of a a you know a headline we didn't realise at the time but she's uh but she's autistic so um she found school just completely overwhelming the the the smell all the sensory issues around being at school uh she's also dyslexic so she'd um she was memorising books so she could pretend that she was reading at the same speed as the other children excellent all right right um and the teacher had absolutely no idea that this was going on but I knew because I was reading the books with her and you know she'd she'd know them off by heart go in the next day pretend that she was reading I mean she did learn to read by seven but I could see the progression what was going on and um and I think it was just yeah dyslexia um the the kids again there was interpersonal problems that you could see that was starting to really kind of affect her confidence and um we we just took her out for a week to go on holiday and at the end of that week I just thought no she's not going back she sort of like came back to us she was like the normal child that we knew that she could be just and like Dominic had all always wanted her to be homemade so um I was I was the one who was reluctant and and just after seeing her like come back to life.
SPEAKER_03And can I ask and sorry you know please anything that feels uncomfortable to sort of answer or just say but can I can I ask on the you know spectrum of autism if you like in to to have some kind of context of that because I almost feel like some people might be listening and you've said okay well um she's autistic and she's dyslexic and then immediately oh well that's alright so if you're home educate you're home educated because you don't sort of fit in there but just to understand how able she was to function within the parameters of school life I mean you've obviously described about reading but you know was she able to sit through a lesson you know that for example I think she was I don't think they had any that I don't think this the teachers had any issue with her.
SPEAKER_01They um teacher I know came to me and um and she I could see her kind of running through what was the problem and she was going you know it's not that she's not confident um she can she can do all of these things but she was just kind of like searching for what the issue was and at the time we thought oh it's dyslexia because Dominic is really very dyslexic and and he just was just like school is just not a place for dyslexic kids and it wasn't until we got her younger brother diagnosed with autism that we really understood what was going on when she was much older like 15 say because she she could cope with things but she just needed a a lot of time to decompress um she needed a lot of time by herself to focus she couldn't concentrate on anything if there was any kind of noise at all um uh you know her ongoing problems have been maybe interpersonal where she needs to find other people who are neurodiverse to to really kind of connect with who can understand that she's not gonna really like very busy places or or you know certain types of experience sort of so like that um but again I wouldn't undermine like her being able to cope with like saying that she has to cope sort of issue. You know just because somebody can be high functioning doesn't mean that the impact that they have of experiences is is any less.
SPEAKER_03I think just because they're hiding it well if you like like like you say like memorising a book to cope.
SPEAKER_01So that's almost like a stress response isn't it to the shame of not being able to read yeah I think she did learn how she was supposed to act and it's it's only been now that she's kind of older that she can go back to being like her her her real self where she's not so kind I know they they use the term masking um so there's there's a lot of even just from those like five years of nursery and school or whatever that she'd she'd really learned that she wasn't supposed to be herself sort of and our lack of understanding of what she was going through as well probably didn't didn't help the situation you know it was only when we looked through the checklist of um what we were supposed to be doing to to diagnose our younger son who was who's very clearly autistic you know there wasn't any kind of question with with his behaviours and things that I kind of suddenly realized that all of these things applied to her as well and um and that was a kind of a you know a a a learning experience for us as well to sort of re-evaluate all the things that we thought were her personality and quirks about her as being being able to be ex explained by autism. So I could ask um i the music education experience in that short period that she was at school what was what were her musical experiences while while she was there positive or I mean the the she had a really good experience with a teacher who was very much focused on music and she um she really encouraged singing a lot and um and you know that that was one of the reasons that we felt sad about her leaving school actually and and then I tried to find other kind of provision for her um for singing but that kind of didn't work she s she suddenly came down with like hay fever really badly so she'd um like if as soon as like May hit she would be kind of a mess because um she was so affected by hay fever and again my stupidity I didn't really understand what was going on I thought she was just getting colds all the time like really bad colds and um it wasn't until she was about ten that the doctor was just like oh she's got hay fever but but so at school actually the the music lessons were a positive and even for being neurodiverse you know it was a a positive experience. She always really loved singing.
SPEAKER_03And what about the sort of the noise in music classes was that ever a a problem or was that just actually it was okay?
SPEAKER_01I I don't think that it was I don't think it was enough of an experience in school to f for me to have like any awareness of it. It was just I remember that that particular teacher was the music teacher in the school and was also her teacher so there was she was just a nice teacher.
SPEAKER_03Okay well let's let's skip forward to the the experience then and and and the choice of a home educator and trying to find music tuition because that's obviously something that people will just be fascinated to understand how that sort of even works especially as a you know self-proclaimed non-musician because that idea of the teacher delivers the education and that's obviously tick switched on its head because you're not there as a a teacher as such I suppose so yeah what what happens really well there was a point where I I thought our daughter would would go to secondary school I thought that she would be bored of being at home and she would go to secondary school and and that was just like no that's just not happening and at that point we like both had to sit up and and realize that um that we were actually in charge of the education now at this point and we're gonna have to like work something out.
SPEAKER_01More parental responsibility that's for four kids that's the last thing you need I reckon and um it was coming up to Christmas and I just thought oh let's buy her guitar and um and she she was really good she'd you know she'd practice a couple of chords and things and then I thought okay we need a teacher because that's the that's the route that you go down when somebody's learning an instrument and she joined group lessons and and then the the the guitar just got abandoned and it was just like oh what's happening now and like real face-to-face group lessons like in the local area you are like yeah there was group lessons and and it was just oh this isn't working where it's just had to come to terms with the fact that right that's not working and so we took her out to lessons and then suddenly it was just like full on she was just real drive then she was gonna learn to play by herself that was it we found some YouTube videos or whatever it was she could just play along with and um and she taught herself and then I found a project which was a home edge project which was other home ed kids doing like kind of rock school type thing and and at that point by the time she was 14 like over 12 to 14 she'd learned to play the guitar by herself that it was okay and then she could get involved with uh kind of um her own band writing the music and performing and busking doing things like that so just again off her own back of well you know it was kind of organized in terms of it was a homemade focused project um that so to provide context again for people who don't have an insight into that because it almost sounds like you're describing a classroom again so it's you know it's a led thing by a teacher or no no it was it was very much you know there was a a studio that they could go to so pay for the studio and they turn up and write their own songs and just go on with practicing like any band would do together. So it's still yes their sort of drive steps up to them yeah absolutely and um the person who's in charge of the project would set up little events for them to go and perform at and things okay well it sounds wonderful sounds like a really positive experience.
SPEAKER_03Now we've obviously had conversation before this podcast but it would be lovely to delve into the I don't know more challenging experience I suppose okay yeah um well again um uh there was did I I don't know if all schools run music centres where they have after school lessons.
SPEAKER_01Certainly not I think that there's a I think there's a couple that I've heard of through Dev and different schools that's got music centers run through the music hubs um sort of thing. So there was again is a home eight mum who um was advertising this as being open to home educated kids as well as this the children who attend the school so um our daughter went along and the the particular aim of this music centre is to develop kids in instruments that are endangered. So that's how she became involved with Viola because um you know I suppose the the automatic choice would be violin but we haven't got much room it's uh it was Viola that was on offer and she um she started that and it suited her really well she really loves classical music and um and the strings suit her really well as well because she's got a really beautiful singing voice she's got a really good ear um she'd been trying to teach herself on a keyboard she could pick out little bits of of playing herself but uh I suppose as soon as she sort of developed some ability with the Viola we knew that she was going to need kind of further input as well and we wouldn't be able to do the same as we'd done with our older daughter where she could just do it herself from YouTube videos. She was going to need kind of further input in terms of uh how to how to play it uh how to progress and there was also the kind of issues of do you need greats to do anything with classical music we were completely out of our bets we didn't know what you feel like you're accessing a different culture right a different sort of musical culture. Absolutely yeah and and it was kind of you know at this point we're pretty comfortable with the idea that kids uh learn kids learn nobody teaches they just find out what they want to know and they learn for themselves and they can be facilitated in that learning and guided but ultimately you know it's their journey and and they do it for themselves. And that that has been I suppose the the what where we've been at odds with more traditional music tuition where they um where they kind of feel that in order to be creative I suppose you need to have reached a certain skill level before before you can sort of start to improvise or or do things like um I kind of think of it like our our attitude is is let them run before they can walk sort of with any subject. If they want to know something really in depth that that in school you'd be kind of held back from because you have to go through these progressive stages to get there.
SPEAKER_03It would be like no you know if you want to listen to some kind of radical piece of of music um I should have got my um should have got notes on the kinds of things that we let her listen to what like radical was in like avant-garde sort of like a like a John Cage piece or something.
SPEAKER_01Yeah absolutely John Cage you know she's learning viola so John Cale obviously and then um and you know that that kind of A tonality or something to just let her just do what she wants to do and um and there was a there was a kind of crunch point where we were being given a lot of advice which we felt was really at odds and kind of Dominic was the one who really took it in hand and was just like no I really disagree with this like with all of my being I just we knew he was like we know how to do this with kids I'm just gonna do this now and I'm gonna like allow her to to grow the way that she can grow and so he was just like no I'm not gonna I'm not gonna make her practice any of those really boring pieces of music that we've been given where she's supposed to learn like three chords or something it's just like you do your practice you improvise you make whatever noise you want to make as long as you do it every day and so they'll sit together she'll stand and she'll play for like 10-15 minutes they'll listen to a piece of music she'll improvise along with the music making whatever noises that she feels like she needs to respond to from the music she'll make up her own piece she'll do all of the things that um the opposite of Western classical music education the the I I guess that is that because she's just you know she's Making atonal noises, she's scratching, she's banging, she's doing all the things that you know. I imagined that one of the teachers would be horrified. Stop, stop. It it does feel a bit like that because they they they're kind of really uptight about making the wrong noises, sort of feels like. And um and and surely kind of learn that that there are no wrong noises from listening to more avant-garde music, sort of thing. But but her her progression has been quite amazing since that, I think, that she's become more confident in playing. Her hands have got much stronger, and and then when she has to play the boring things, she can do it really quickly. So there's been a progression without the progression.
SPEAKER_03So really, and just for me to sort of summarise things in my from my own little mind, really, and jump in if I've got the wrong end of the stick here, but it seems that perhaps uh because we're talking about uh the challenges of accessing Western classical music education and from a home education perspective, a kind of a philosophy which would be young person led, um not prescribed, and you know, can unfold in any way that idea of accessing things like improvisation from any skill level. So do you think because I we're not really talking about state school versus home ed here, we're talking almost like cultures. I suppose classical well, Western classical music education is really what we see so much in state schools, it seems, even if it's hidden underneath there's this sort of fundamental of exams and those kind of ideas. Um, so did is is that am I kind of getting the right end of the stick in some ways that actually homemade is is kind of a philosophy rather than just the the physical obvious thing of children being at h learning at home with their parents?
SPEAKER_01There are as many different schools of home edge as there are people doing it, I imagine. I mean, they they kind of can fit into groupings like unschooling, which is what we would be told we are doing. Okay um like I didn't we didn't go out and search for a methodology and then apply it to our children. We just realized that our oldest daughter was very um the the more you try to push, the more she'd push back. So we had to take away any kind of pushing and just let her get on with it herself, and it was just like it was kind of like offering little bits of like I'd buy her books and things, and either they'd get accepted or they'd be rejected, and it was just that constantly through through all of the kids. Um the experience with all of the kids have been the same. It's just like they find their thing, we let them get on with it, and I suppose that is that is classified as unschooling, but I'd I'd call it more a kind of autonomous approach personally, but um there are home educators who do school at home, you know, where they think that they have to meet the the points on the curriculum and go through them, and they've got obviously like kids uh like structure or you know, would do that happily, go along with that. Um our oldest son is just taking his English exam today, so we've gone through a couple of years with him of doing the curriculum things that he needs to do. Again, self self-taught actually, where he gets on with it himself. So, you know, it's just it's just whatever is right for the particular child. He's more academic, so he wants to do more academic things.
SPEAKER_03Thank you so much for all your time.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_03So there you go. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. Please don't forget to follow or subscribe to this podcast wherever it is that you listen to your podcast. And a huge thank you to the Soundstore Music Education Hub and our sponsors, Faber Music, for making this possible.