The Music Education Podcast
Listen for authentic and challenging conversation on all things music ed. Brought to you by Charanga. Hosted and produced by Chris Woods of The Chris Woods Groove Orchestra.
The Music Education Podcast
Episode 93 - 'Synesthesia and the Senses' - Matt Pittori
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In this episode Chris chats with drummer and composer Matt Pittori about having synesthesia. This podcast is brought to you by Charanga.
Welcome to the Music Education Podcast. I'm Chris of the Chris Woods Groove Orchestra and this podcast is brought to you by Charanga. So this episode is about synesthesia. It's about the senses. It's about some other stuff too, but I would say they're our main focuses and fascinating focuses they are, I'm sure you'll agree. I chat with drummer, composer, and synesthet or person with synesthesia, Matt Patori. Matt is an incredible musician, incredibly creative and incredibly connected to what he does. I've had the pleasure of working with him musically, and for this episode, I had the pleasure of sitting and chatting with him over a cup of tea in my kitchen about being a musician and having synesthesia, essentially seeing sound. And I really tried to get to the bottom of what that is like. Trying to understand what his musical experience is, and I guess trying to understand if we can learn anything from it. The conversation actually starts off around something completely different where we're chatting about AI and music and the effect that has had on Matt's work as a composer for Sync Libraries, which in itself is fantastically fascinating. And then somehow we magically and smoothly segue into talking about, well, one of the most incredible things that I've ever had the pleasure of talking about, which is synesthesia. I hope you enjoy listening.
SPEAKER_01To me, the I mean as a as a as a as a nation, and I'm you know I'm not you know I'm not a little Englander in any way, shape, or form uh at all, but we really do in terms of the music industry punch above our weight massively. So it seems it would seem logical to me to actually create a system that um or create an environment uh in terms of music education that you can have a kind of reasonably easy pathway to a career making money in in in the music industry.
SPEAKER_00Um what about all the sync stuff? So the sync stuff or the library stuff that you're doing, surely that is going to be the opportunities there are becoming smaller.
SPEAKER_01Yes, 100%.
SPEAKER_00Partly because so much of that music's been created, and also partly because of AI as well.
SPEAKER_01AI is a bit of a problem. Um I've had uh You're not making country tracks anymore, that's for sure. Well, I mean, I've had friends that have sent me stuff that um uh that they've used AI for, and you can't I can't tell.
SPEAKER_00Right, okay.
SPEAKER_01You listen to it and other guys who work for libraries and they're saying this took me uh you know uh ten minutes to do on I can't remember the name of the AI app that does it. Right. And I'm like I listen to it and still go, ah yeah, it sounds good, sounds a bit, you know, but in terms of library music and stuff like that, yeah, uh AI will take that over.
SPEAKER_00Has that affected you already?
SPEAKER_01Do you think that's uh I think I think I think I've probably lost bits and pieces of work, but you can um what seems to be happening is there seems to be a little bit of a a kind of not it's not a backlash, but people people want to know that humans have been involved.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so even the libraries that you're working for.
SPEAKER_01They're going to be you're not using any I you're not using any because I think there's an element of there's there's there's potential publishing issues, uh uh and they're they're looking at it from a you know potentially a money-making situation, but let's say, are there publishing issues? Can a an AI company come and claim the ownership of the truck? Oh, I see. So future proofing. Future proofing. So they're saying, is this actually a completely original piece of music? Oh interesting. And you know, and for me it's like, well, yes, because one, I actually enjoy the process of playing or learning to play an instrument or struggling to play an instrument to make that piece of music. Um, but when I I can see why people do it if that you know you can use one of these AI pieces of software and you can do it in 30 seconds. You literally put a prompt in saying, I need a track to sound like this. Oh, it's interesting, and it sounds incredible, and you sort of go, Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting thing that I've found, and this this kind of relates to a bit of my neurological issue. Oh good. Is that each of those softwares has a colour, has a different colour and a different sound. So I've noticed this with doors as well. From what I experience, and and the same it's the same with doors as well. Logic has has a has a sound and a colour. It has a sound, different sound you can hear when stuff has been done on logic, than it is, it's different to Proto.
SPEAKER_00So can you describe then what you see in your and it's in your mind's eye, or is it in your eyes?
SPEAKER_01Ah, well, in your eyes? This this is this is the the interesting um point, is because uh I I spoke to a new neurologist about it uh many years ago. Uh god, it must have been about 10-15 years ago, about um synesthesia uh and my specific form of synesthesia, which is chromesthesia. So there's different types. What does that mean? Well, synesthesia is the uh overarching kind of umbrella term for a kind of uh mixing and and triggering of senses. My one is chromoseia. There's I can't remember all of them, but there's graphene, um, which is so chromoseia, I can explain my one, yeah, definitely, is uh uh my senses, um my uh sight senses are triggered when I hear sounds, noises, okay, and which is a bit weird for me, um strong smells. Okay. So I will experience seeing colours. So if I hear a piece of music, I see colours.
SPEAKER_00So can you actually when you say seeing colours to me it's seeing. So physically, if you're looking at me, right.
SPEAKER_01While you're talking, I'm seeing colours, yeah. But how you say is it like a filter or is it well no, it's it's well it's very difficult because it's all I've ever known. So it's very hard to kind of okay, and you're cut it's constant. It's all the time, yeah. So when there's sound, it's all the time.
SPEAKER_00Um so there's it's kind of like it's all I can. But there's always sound, right? As well, because even I mean, I imagine you've got a squat of tinnitus that's got I I've got I've got weapons grade tinnitus in my left. So even if you put your fingers in your ears, you're still seeing yeah, yeah. So you still see life and I were yeah, and I've I don't know how relevant this is.
SPEAKER_01As I've got older, it's got more pronounced.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01It's got more not because it's not it's not regarded numerologically, it's not regarded as a disability in any way, shape, or form. It's just regarded as an anomaly. And it I think it affects, I don't know, it's a slightly I still four percent. Oh, right, yeah. I thought it was about five or six percent.
SPEAKER_00I thought it was about but I did also see lots of people saying, Oh, I don't think that's true.
SPEAKER_01I yeah, I mean it's okay. But I see I I I personally see it all the time, it's always there. Can we really double down on what it is that you see?
SPEAKER_00So I think you can.
SPEAKER_01I see a uh it's like a transparency. So so if you like had a you remember you used to get those transparent gels of colour?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, to go over lights.
SPEAKER_01It's kind of like that, but not as pronounced. So it's there's a a kind of uh a gentle colour that comes up when the la sound gets louder or is more pronounced, it gets darker.
SPEAKER_00Wow. Um and is it is that over the whole of what you see?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah. And can it almost black can it become a problem?
SPEAKER_01It can become that there there are moments where it becomes um uh there's like century overload. Okay. So uh a funny story, and it is a funny story because um but it it it like strong smells that suddenly appear can make it happen for me, but that is a much more violent reaction. So in that instance, when that happens, it's colour, lots of colour, but shapes as well, and to the point that it's it's so that it's sensory overload that I you know I'm struggling. So the problem that I have is uh and there are other retailers available, boots, the chemist, yeah, lush.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Um if you walk into boots, well they always do they always do, they put the perfumery and the fragrance counter on the ground floor. So I walk in and it's an instant hit of these mix of strong cut uh strong smells, yeah, which instantly gives me sensory overload. Yeah, and then I walk into a display and the security guard comes. Seriously, this is what happened. The security guard came and went, Are you drunk? And my daughter Bria then grabs my arm and decides to take me out and go, It's all right, Dad, don't worry. And I've fallen over the benches outside of Lush when I was on my phone, not paying attention to walking past Lush, and the smells came out, sensory overload, trip overload.
SPEAKER_00So it's not like um you're like unpleasant smells, so you walk into the gent in a no, no, it could be you're like, oh it's it's actually just the intensity of it's the intensity of smell.
SPEAKER_01So when you know somebody goes, you know, my kids oh smell that, and they stick it right under your nose. I'm instantly like, whoa, and it really does the smell thing, really does kind of knock me back. The sound thing, I've always been it's always just been there, and obviously doing music and being a musician, I've got to I've got to utilize it because I can I can sit not only can I I my ears quite good, so I can hear when things are not right, but I can also see when things aren't right.
SPEAKER_00Can I so um if I get my guitar and I play some stuff, can we sort of do a what do you see thing? It can do if you want to. I've got so many things in my head to ask. I'll get a Kalimba as well, how about that?
SPEAKER_01Oh, that could be interesting.
SPEAKER_00Um and then, because I think that'll be intriguing. That's a lovely Ivanos. Thanks, Matt. Uh okay, so what I'll just play a pair of Would you want me to describe what I'd see?
SPEAKER_01Uh so uh colours wise, I'm kind of seeing a um it's kind of like a a a mauve colour with a bit of pink, and then there's a kind of there's a light sort of green in there. I don't even know what that is.
SPEAKER_00Oh is it's what the chord is? Is it F major 7? Yeah. Okay, and is it sort of changing as I play different notes? As in because I'm A little bit, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well it but those colours are there and it's kind of it's kind of weird because it's kind of moving around. Okay. So it's so it m it moves, but it kind of but it's not because it's all I know. I don't see it as it's not distracting, it's just that's what it is. It's just yeah. See that's gone to a kind of a nice I don't know, that's kind of a a nice blue, and uh a kind dark blue, and we've gone it's kind of a green-yellow stuff going on there, gone back to kind of a bluey kind of thing. Okay. So the sorry, no, the interesting thing with all that I found, because I I spoke to this neurologist, uh, and the they were studying to see if there was any kind of synergy between people that suffer from the same thing. Yeah, does it yeah, yeah, yeah. Is like that F is uh is a is there a green and sort of movies? Yeah, is there a whole thing going on there? Is it the same? Okay, it's all completely individual, apparently. But then again, I have come across one other person that has chromosisia, and we kept hitting the same not not every single piece of music or every note, but when we got to Cs, it would always be the same sort of colour.
SPEAKER_00That's my my biggest question is understanding, and this links right to the music education side of things, is what is what is informing the sound pitch, because immediately we're like, oh, that's an F major seven, and F major seven's green for Matt. Actually, is that anything to do with that, or is it more a tonal textural thing? Yeah, so if I play an F here and an F on a Kalimba, is that totally different because it's what parameters are doing it, or do you not know? I'll shut up.
SPEAKER_01No, um it tends to be an F is an F. So the colours will usually stays the same. The tone, so the the intensity of the colour will change depending on if it's the Kalimba, if it's the guitar. So if you play an F on there, that's a there's still kind of a greenish kind of colour to it. Okay, but if you play then the F on there, it's a different tone. Okay. So that is a little bit more, it's a bit darker. I don't want to be really sort of simplistic about it, but it's a bit a little bit darker, and it just seems to have a bit more body to that. That might just purely be the velocity of that you were playing at. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So there's not really like uh specific um it's not red on green.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it kind of moves around. It usually the sort of like most of the notes will usually be around the same sort of colour, and you kind of learn. I've kind of learned because I do music that this, you know, an F is usually sort of a greenish sort of colour around that, and I can normally rely on it, but not always. Not I don't always get it absolutely right in terms of going, somebody might play an F and I go, I'm not sure is that an I can't really see it, or I can see, I think it's a green, but that might just be my not, you know, wanting to you know assume that I know everything, and and and but if you know it kind of you kind of see the colour um in a again, it it's it's also the environment that you're in, it's the room you're in. It can make a huge difference, and and it again the dynamics makes a huge difference, the instrument makes a huge difference in terms of it's usually the same colour, but the intensity sometimes, you know, especially with um like E's and F's, for instance. Um going between the two, between the two, because there's no obvious kind of real sort of semitone, so to speak. The false relationship is the one that they can kind of they can kind of blend a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Oh, interesting, okay. Um and so is it pitch um for you? Is it actually frequency specific or is it um what's the word like the proportion? So does it become like a perfect pitch thing? Oh, if yeah, yeah, I mean, well no i tune to 420 hertz or something, which is yeah, but then I'm all a bit off, man.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, but the the the the problem that I've found with all of that is if I rely just so so if you if I get rid of my ears and I just go by side, if I just go by what I can what what's coming up, um and this is something that I learned in in in Metropolis Studios actually, again suddenly hit me when we were doing stuff there, that not all tuners are the same.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, for sure, for sure, definitely.
SPEAKER_01Even you know, even you know, computer tuners are different, the standalone tuners are different, they all kind of work slightly, and this is the thing that's started to surprise me with technology is that you kind of think it's a standard across the board, and that's the idea, but not all of it is. Some of it's slightly out, or some of it has a slight tune to it, or like I was saying about doors, they all have their own kind of sound, really. If you I mean, maybe I'm being really sort of nerdy and uh over the top, but like cubase has a sound, so does logic, so does uh Ableton, they all have sounds, but yeah, yeah, but those different doors and how they yeah, how they even um their certain compressors or what have you. Well, it's just the way they they process the information creates something, or well, I I'm not an expert in this, but the only reason why I feel more comfortable with Pro Tools, and it's purely and I I accept this, and uh is that I mainly use that, is that I don't perceive that as having a colour to it.
SPEAKER_00Right. Because we're talking we've just been talking about like individual notes almost, but now you're talking about yeah, overall sort of what you would say, like an overall tone or quality of sound. So you're because when you're hearing when I play the chord on its own, it might sort of arbitrary test if you like. Do you know what I mean? It's like I see green, okay, we're going to the G, I see blue. But actually, when you're hearing, when you're kicking back at home listening to Taylor Swift uh as I do, as you say, then you're like you're you're obviously not hearing the chords coming in individual colours, or are you, or are you just hearing a tinge and you can hear the sort of yeah what's if it it it's well it's a bit like it's a bit like um it's a bit like your hearing.
SPEAKER_01It's um if you're listening to a piece of music, you're listening to the music. You smoke you're meant to listen to the whole thing. But if you choose, especially being a musician, so there's an element of training, if you choose to listen to, do you know what I'm just gonna really focus in on the bass line, but the music's still going, so I can do that if I'm when you start to hear the colours more of the bass line. Yeah, I can start to if I really start to focus, I can really start to pick out where the colour uh you know the colours would if I really want to, or I can just go, there's the music, which is uh what I normally do, go there's the music, and it's just a nice kaleidoscope of of stuff, and oh, you know, and the the you know, again, me pr predominantly being a drummer all drums have a have a note to a degree, yeah. Um, you know, and most people think, oh that you know, but most drums will have a note, so I can see the colours of the of the drums, and so I'll focus on the drum parts if I'm learning something, or I I want you know, or I want to copy something or nick something from somebody that's better than me, annoyingly. Um you sort of yeah, and you I can I can see it, and and you listen to you listen to a piece of music, um and especially with the drum parts, if you listen to a like a pop track, you can really tell when somebody's really know knows what they're doing. It's because all the toms are in the right are in the key of the song.
SPEAKER_00Okay, I've actually been bothered to be tuned.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they tune them to the key of the song rather than just being you know, people just assuming that the the drums are just you know uh a non-tonal instrument, it's just like bang and it makes a sound. It's like well, no, if you actually tune them properly and get them into the key of the song, I guarantee you your song will sound a million times better across the board. And it's you know that you know, you top producers know all of this, they've been doing it for years. And if you actually listen to some of the classic stuff and listen back to it, you go, Oh yeah, all the drums are in the key of the song, which is you know, you kind of think it's a you know, it it's it's it's well, it's a no brainer, but it it will make a difference as a as a tip for anybody doing you know, tune your drums. Um but to the specific Rather than just like it's a whole thing, yeah, you can focus I can focus. Um sometimes uh it can be a bit overwhelming. Uh you know, you know, I I'm of an age now where I kind of got used to it and I kind of you know, but I remember when I first really found out that I you know I was 23, 24 when I really found out that actually not everybody experienced. Okay, man, so when are the rooms red? Yeah, no, no, I was I was doing I was doing doing a session and uh there was a small string I was assist I was being an assistant engineer um with all these big boy you know engineers and producers and there was a small string section they're playing and it was it was wrong somebody was out of tune right there was about 12 of them and I and I just sort of went to the engineer and went the string section's not right I don't know I don't know exactly which one but somebody's not in tune and he sort of looked at how did you know that and I went well can't you hear it and he was like no and then I went can't you see it and he went and then he started to look at me as if I was mad and he went what are you talking about? I said can't you see that the the colour's not right pure enough, it's kind of off. It's and he was like, I don't know what you're talking about, and then I started to think, You're not seeing any colours, are you? I just thought everybody saw colours.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god, as a teenager, you didn't see you.
SPEAKER_01I just thought everybody had this is what existing was.
SPEAKER_00Oh my word. And then I can you go your whole life.
SPEAKER_01I went to the doctor went to the doc. I went to the doctor, and the doctor sort of went, Yeah, this is out of my pay grade, I don't know what we're doing here. We need to send you to see a neurologist. So I went to see I went to St. Thomas's and I went to see a neurologist and just had a a a sort of half an hour conversation.
SPEAKER_00And interestingly, what sort of year is this as well?
SPEAKER_01Because I just uh uh we're hang on a minute, we're a bit of a bit uh would have been 19 hang on a minute. Oh god, Maths is was not my strongest point. Um it would have been early 90s, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so but but yeah, there were even the awareness. So weirdly, I remember seeing a documentary about synesthesia, like I don't know, early noughties, maybe. But I imagine it was probably quite a well think you were crazy. The neurologist was great.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Uh uh and uh the GP was obviously the GP was just like, yeah, we don't know what's going on with that. There might be something sinister. I think the words he actually used were sinister, which I thought interesting bedside manager used the word sinister for health. Um I remember that's always stuck with me, Matt. I thought, yeah, they didn't teach you well, they um so I I went to see the neurologist, and the neurologist was great, super excited to talk to me about it, go, oh yeah, there's some studies about this, and yeah, there is a there is a connection, there is a connection between the senses, and uh and he was saying at the time, I don't know if this if they still think this, but I remember him saying, Oh, what what what the uh the consensus is at the moment is that everybody when they're born has this. Everybody has it. This is exactly what I was reading for we and then when uh your other senses develop and get stronger, you lose the the capacity goes because you've got no need for it. Um so the the the triggering of different senses and and stuff is there's no need for it on an evolutionary level. I was like, right, okay, right. So all I wanted to ask them was so I see colours when I hear sounds and sometimes strong smells, so you're telling me nobody else sees that, and he went, uh, very few people, you're the only one. And I was like, right, so you're really special. Well, no, but you've got to remember this is in the 90s, so I in this instant being different in any way was like, Yeah, yeah, no, you don't you don't want to stand out, Jesus. So I thought, right then, so this is a disability, right? And he was like, No, it's not called it's not regarded as a disability at all, um, unless it it's so it affects your life that you can't function. And he was like, Well, and then then we went into details about you know what's the intensity of colour like, what's it like uh how does it present itself to you? Is it actually just in your mind or is it in your vision? And I was like, I'm not sure how I can say I think it's in my vision, but if you're saying it could just be in my mind, but when I did he mean like your mind's eye, your mind's eye, yeah. Okay, yeah. So when I hear something, then in my mind's eye, and then I I'm perceiving that as I'm seeing it. But actually, I said, But no, to me, it's actually I'm visually seeing things to me. That's what it my experiences, whether that's actually accurate, and they're like, Well, yeah, there's no way we can really find that out. Well, yeah, I'm just like, yeah, and then bizarrely enough, I went to an academic dinner with my wife, Katrina. Um, and uh I mean, this was a posh do at Oxford, uh, and there was lots of very world-famous sort of and I I just happened to sit opposite one of the the top neurologists in in Europe, and she would not leave me alone. She she just she liked pulling tuning for tapping the wine glass. Explain that to her, just like uh and we literally sat there all night and she was fascinating. And she actually said, You need to come in so we can study this properly and we can really analyze what what's going on because this is such a phenomenon. Did you uh no? Okay, I was terrified. I just thought don't cut me open, whatever you're doing. Yeah, um eyes lighting up, yeah. Just experiments, just putting the gloves on before dessert going anyway. Um and and uh yeah, you and she was she was kind of saying all the same sort of things, but she was saying what from her knowledge of it and the studies that they've been doing is that there's a very individual thing in terms of the experience, but also the fact that they're finding different types of synesthesia, so chromoshesia, which is the one with sound and and colour, and then you've got graphene or whatever which is. If you say a word, you'll see a colour. Okay. So, you know, Tuesday is what colour to you? Uh red, but I don't I don't actually I I think I just said that because they're doing is they're testing people by saying Tuesday, and they're instantly just saying, you know, or or or uh or a number can represent a colour of that's graphene. There's another one which is um I can't remember what it's called.
SPEAKER_00We do we obviously need to get that lady in that you uh you met to talk about all the sort of technical.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's loads of technical, and and there's different sets, and people are finding different ways. And and the one that's a little bit unique for me is the smell thing with with the colour. They don't normally apparently they don't that doesn't normally happen. So um that's just another reason why I'm broken on some level that I happen to have the uh the smell and and and the colour one, but it's not when I was younger at times I felt I I I would find it slightly overwhelming. Now uh it it is just what it is. It's is that a positive thing? I think it's a positive thing. I think it's a positive thing in terms of the fact that I do music and it there are benefits, there are 100%. I mean, it can look really cool if I sit there and go to an orchestra and they're playing, and and you sort of point to the string section and you go, You're out of tune. Out have him murder. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you know, but you can and it and suddenly everybody in the control room turns around and looks at you and goes, and they they they look at you like which? How did you know that? And you go, well, because I could see that the the the the when the when the string sections are all tuning up or they're play all playing a chord to get in tune, that the colours don't there's there's a there's an anomaly in in the colour in that it's not as strong in a certain point, so it there's an element of frequency, but there's also an element of something's out of tune.
SPEAKER_00So they go around and they all test each other individually, and one of them was slightly sharp, and you sort of go, What why I'm so fascinated by this is apart from the fact that I just think it's really relevant and interesting to do an episode because people will be interested in it, and ultimately that's my aim. I want validation is that it's it's so much in music education that I think is missed is the connection element.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So like I I this comes from the experiences that we've probably both had from your music ed experience of at dual academy, for example, where you're meeting a group of young people for the first time and you go and play a basic beat, and you realise okay, half of you can't actually just play a beat. And it's like, okay, well that half hasn't connected, hasn't in a sensory way connected with pulse, um, or it's even before we get to harmony, but they haven't, it's like a connection thing, and well, I feel like your thing, the synesthesia thing, is like a high-level connection that you and what that's what I feel, and with musicians that I've chosen to work with, the lucky kid, and I feel like obviously amazing to work as he's so connected, and there's there's all this sort of textual approach, and I I I wonder whether um from briefly reading, and you already just saying that actually maybe it's something that we all have, and then we gradually specialise and it disappears, and actually it's like a sensory thing where we're shoving off and we're losing those abilities, whereas for some reason you you've kept that sort of heightened state. I mean, even you talk about being overwhelmed by smells, so um apologies, I'm gonna waffle a little bit. Um I remember like during COVID, where you know, after however many weeks of not being in a crowded place or months of not being in a crowded place, and then when I was then going back to it and you start to notice yeah people's perfume and stuff, yeah. Oh man, that's just too much. 100%. And it's it's like day-to-day life dials down our senses because we have to shut off, we have to shut off from the noise because if we are seeing all that, it becomes overwhelming. So we're just you know, and musically we're sort of tuning out, um, and in order to in music education, we're in order to we we need to spend time to get people to tune back in. Um I wonder what synesthesia thing is that go on.
SPEAKER_01I I yeah, fundamentally, I agree with kind of everything you say. Um what I I found, especially when I was teaching um uh or doing bits and pieces, is you're right, you you come across a group of uh students that are keen and they like what they they want to do certain things, they want to learn a basic B, they want to learn, but actually, when you you if you there are the ones that are you know are just good because they've had an ex to me from they've had an exposure to music in some ways, and then there's the one they've got a connection because they've been dancing in the living room and they've been exactly recording. They've been moving to music, yeah. And one of the best ways to sort of that I found especially with with younger kids to get them sort of into uh sort of drumming or or percussion is uh on the rhythm front, is to teach them how to move in time. So literally jump from one spot to the next to a rhythm and try and do it in time. Try to get them to understand where the time is and and where they feel uh and that coordinates physical movement and the sense of moving with the the the the the auditory listening. So here's I'm listening to the music and that and then I'm gonna move in time. That's kind of the basics of music, but what I found, especially then, is if you then extract extrapolate that out to musicians, is I think a reason why the connection or potentially uh the connection with the other senses uh and and is there's a reliance on a metronome, or there's a reliance on technology, or there's a reliance on something to say, actually, this is right. Whereas if you move away, if you if you trust yourself a little bit more, trust what you're feeling, literally. I know this is sound I'm I don't want to get all too hippy. Um in the right place, but do you know what I mean? You sort of you trust in your own feeling of what you're experiencing, the music, the sound, and you trust in that a little bit more, you'll be incredibly surprised at how more musical it'll sound because there's so much emphasis on you know, and I come from a world I come from I I made living a good living doing session music, playing to click tracks, playing to computers, making sure that I was in time, or to the point where actually we want you to be perfectly in time, but in the chorus, can you be slightly ahead of the beat but still in time? Yes. So I got so good that I could move around the time where the perfect time is to play in front, play behind, play exactly on it, but always on reliance to the click track. And as soon as the click track was taken away, I then for for a while lost confidence in my own time. But actually, my time was really good, but I just didn't have the because I wasn't again back to the point of validation. I wasn't having the validation of the click track telling me I was perfectly in time, uh, or or roughly around where the time should be, that I lost confidence in my own connection to listening to the music and just sort of going, there's the time, I feel happy with that, that's a good time, we're good. That's I'm in time, that's that's fine. We can move around that as the time, absolutely no problem. And I think that the the lack the lack of connection um in terms of sort of letting go a little bit of what that there is an expectation that you have to play or you have to be a certain way musically, that you then are relying on external sources to tell you that you're right or you're wrong. And you can't I don't think you can allow external sources to tell you that your feeling is right or wrong. If you feel something needs to be a little bit faster or a little bit louder, or uh uh a little bit more intense, then that's a good feeling. Go with your feeling, be musical with it. Um, and I think there's a lot of reliance on uh external sources in terms of the the you're talking about the synesthesia and the connection with the the the senses for me, um which I've learned to incorporate into into what I do musically. So I have I would say uh a bonus to when I'm collaborating musically with people because the collaboration ultimately for me is to work with other people, is to work with another musician to actually do something and get that kind of feedback and that sensory feedback from playing um with the person, playing the piece of music or playing a piece of music or improvising and really kind of connecting on that front. Um and if you're not if you can't if you don't have synesthesia, you I still think you can get that that connection in terms of your senses, just trusting your senses in terms of how you feel something, how it makes you feel, how you um how you yeah, the conduit duits that you get put into the music that you're feeling. Um I I would assume or I I would like to think is as powerful as me playing and seeing stuff that I think is incredible, and I but I get the benefit of having like a light show at the same time, um which is nice, but I think it can be there, and I I think there's an emphasis in education uh musically, especially when learning an instrument, to rely to not enforce actually trust yourself, trust your own taste, trust your own feelings in terms of how you're feeling the music, trust the same, and trust your senses, trust.